MINUTES OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES AND FACILITIES Sixty-eighth Session March 20, 1995 The Senate Committee on Human Resources and Facilities was called to order by Chairman Raymond D. Rawson, at 1:30 p.m., on Monday, March 20, 1995, in Room 226 of the Legislative Building, Carson City, Nevada. Exhibit A is the Agenda. Exhibit B is the Attendance Roster. COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Senator Raymond D. Rawson, Chairman Senator Sue Lowden, Vice Chairman Senator Maurice Washington Senator Kathy M. Augustine Senator Joseph M. Neal, Jr. Senator Bob Coffin Senator Bernice Mathews STAFF MEMBERS PRESENT: Kerry Carroll Davis, Senior Research Analyst Mary Gavin, Committee Secretary Linda Chapman, Committee Secretary OTHERS PRESENT: Randy Day, Commissioner, Office of Nevada Commissioner for Veteran Affairs Archie Pozzi, Department & National Legislative Chairman, American Legion Daniel Johnson, Chairman, Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission Bruce Bertram, Acting President, Vietnam Veterans Association of Am er ic a, Chapter 388 Thomas R. Vineer, Commander, American Legion Ben Duncan, Member, Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission Jim Martin, Commander, Veterans of Foreign Wars, District III Ted Deems, Legislative Coordinator, Non-Commissioned Officers Association Donald L. Gustin, State Commander, Veterans of Foreign Wars OTHERS PRESENT: (Continued) James P. Weller, Director, Department of Motor Vehicles and Public Safety Stanley B. Kushel, Member, Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission Pete Buell, Commander, Disabled American Veterans * * * * * Chairman Rawson requested the committee's introduction of Bill Draft Request (BDR) 40-662, which was received from the City Manager of Carson City, and stated the purpose of this proposed bill is to allow county hospitals to help other smaller hospitals by joining networks. BILL DRAFT REQUEST 40-662: Authorizes acquisition by county hospital of facilities outside county. * * * * * SENATOR NEAL MADE A MOTION TO INTRODUCE BILL DRAFT REQUEST (BDR) 40-662. SENATOR MATHEWS SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED. (SENATORS COFFIN, AUGUSTINE AND WASHINGTON WERE ABSENT FOR THE VOTE.) * * * * * Chairman Rawson advised he has a request for a bill draft. This was received in the form of a letter sent to Senator Mark James from Grace Reed in Las Vegas, Nevada, asking that all youngsters in school up to the age of 18 years be fingerprinted. On the plus side, fingerprinting of pre-school and school age children could help identify a child who has been abducted. The chairman advised Ms. Reed's real concern is as a homeowner and since youths are primarily the ones who break into homes, it is a method of identifying them. * * * * * SENATOR NEAL MOVED FOR A COMMITTEE BILL DRAFT REQUEST. NO SECOND WAS RECEIVED. Chairman Rawson indicated that the bill draft request dies for lack of a second. * * * * * The hearing was then opened on Senate Bill (S.B.) 162. SENATE BILL 162: Requires fee for burial of certain veterans in state veterans' cemeteries. Senator Lowden introduced herself as the state senator from District 3 and asked that S.B. 162 be held because of a federal bill in Congress right now that would provide for the payment to states of plot allowances for certain veterans eligible for burial in a national cemetery who are buried in cemeteries in such states. Since that is being debated on the national level, she asks that this bill be held until the outcome of that debate is known. Chairman Rawson asked if there was any objection to holding S.B. 162 at this time. There being no objection, the hearing was closed on S.B. 162 and opened on Senate Bill (S.B.) 161. SENATE BILL 161: Consolidate office of Nevada commissioner for veteran affairs. Senator Lowden said these veteran bills sponsored by her originated with former state Senator Hal Smith's request that she carry his bills to the session. Senator Smith has been on a veterans' advisory committee for the past year or so. Knowing he would not be back, he asked her to take a look at these bills and represent him. Senator Lowden continued by saying when she agreed to carry these bills to session, she had no idea of the controversy that would result. She understood these bills came from numerous public hearings on behalf of all veterans, and that all veterans were in agreement on them. The chairman asked Senator Lowden if she had any comments on Senate Bill (S.B.) 163 at this time. SENATE BILL 163: Transfers advisory duties concerning veterans' cemeteries to enlarged veterans' advisory commission. Senator Lowden advised that the same comments apply to S.B. 163 as to S.B. 161 in that she received S.B. 163 from Senator Hal Smith. She does have some questions about changing the advisory committee from 7 to 11 members. It is very unusual to have such a large committee in Nevada. Randy Day, Commissioner, Office of the Nevada Commissioner for Veterans Affairs, submitted a handout to the committee (Exhibit C), a copy of United States Senate Bill 471, referred to by Senator Lowden as the bill being debated on a national level at this time. Mr. Day said this bill would charge peacetime veterans for burial. He feels this is discriminatory, as does Senator Biden, and reimbursement should be made for all veterans. This bill is now in Congress. Mr. Day referred to a second handout (Exhibit D), a copy of Nevada Revised Statutes (NRS) 417.020, NRS 417. 070 and NRS 417.200, pointing out there are a few items in NRS 417.020 that lead to Nevada's problem. That law was passed in 1943. In 1949, two entirely separate and distinct commissioners for veterans' affairs were established; one being the commissioner's office, and the other the deputy commissioner's office. Mr. Day continued by saying that under NRS 417.070, paragraph 3, it spells out who is in charge of what area, and it is clear Nevada is divided. The commissioner has certain counties and the deputy commissioner has certain counties. Further, Mr. Day testified, under NRS 417.200, paragraph 1, the state is again divided. The commissioner is to establish, maintain and operate a veterans' cemetery, and the deputy commissioner shall establish, maintain and operate a veterans' cemetery. Mr. Day pointed out these are all clear separations, and Nevada is probably the only state operating in this unique fashion. Obviously, this separation has caused problems and will continue to cause problems. Mr. Day advised he is trying to correct that by establishing a single line of authority. He said any complaints or questions received by the Governor's office or any questions from the senate or assembly are forwarded to the commissioner's office. Mr. Day suggested if he is going to be charged with being the commissioner for the State of Nevada, the separation should be eliminated and one single line of authority be established to carry out the responsibilities he is assigned. Chairman Rawson asked what the budget is for the commissioner. Mr. Day advised the approximate total budget is $1.8 million. The chairman asked if the budget is divided out, or is it simply given as the commissioner's budget and nothing spelled out for the deputy? Mr. Day said it is not divided out in terms of the deputy and the commissioner. It is divided, however, into many categories, such as the Southern Nevada Veterans' Cemetery as a distinct category, the Northern Nevada Veterans' Cemetery as a distinct category, and third category is for the agency itself. The chairman suggested that one approach would essentially be to create two different theaters, and have two commissioners. The deputy commissioner should really report to the commissioner. He asked Mr. Day if his understanding on this matter is correct. Mr. Day answered affirmatively. Archie Pozzi, Department and National Legislative Chairman, American Legion, said he is representing the five commanders present, and explained there has always been animosity and dissension between what he described as the "north and south," meaning northern Nevada and Clark County. Mr. Pozzi said this undoubtedly stems from the fact that of the 1.5 million veterans in the state, 95,000 are in Clark County. There has been a definite lack of communication, and this has further aggravated the situation. Mr. Pozzi spoke at length about the resulting misunderstandings. As an example, he cited the fact that the veterans in northern Nevada were never advised of the bills before the committee, and the members in Clark County were given copies of these bills. Mr. Pozzi commented on S.B. 161, which consolidates the office of the Nevada Commissioner for Veterans' Affairs and makes the commissioner the head of the agency. A deputy commissioner with authority is needed in Clark County, but S.B. 161 will not give the deputy commissioner that authority. Mr. Pozzi further commented on the Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission, stating he does not agree with appointing 11 members. The Veterans of Foreign Wars have requested that the Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission be abolished, but he does not agree with that and thinks there should be one for both the south and north. These are voluntary positions with no pay involved, and not all of the members are veterans. Mr. Pozzi concluded by saying he is opposed to S.B. 162 and S.B. 163. The chairman asked his preference in having a commissioner and a deputy commissioner insofar as organization is concerned. Mr. Pozzi replied that he would like to leave the structure as is, but feels the deputy commissioner should be in Las Vegas. The chairman asked the name of the deputy commissioner and if he is present at this hearing. Mr. Pozzi replied that his name is Steve Walsh, and he is not present. Senator Lowden addressed Mr. Pozzi by asking if there are any other commissions in this state having a head commissioner and a deputy commissioner with equal authority. Mr. Pozzi said he did not know of any other such situation. Senator Lowden said she is not aware of any other situation in this state where there is a commissioner and a deputy commissioner with equal authority. Senator Lowden advised contrary to Mr. Pozzi's statement, these bills were discussed at public hearings and notice thereof was posted in obvious places, such as Nellis Air Force Base and the Veterans' Administration Hospital, and there were some seven public hearings where these bills were discussed. Senator Neal noted that the advisory commission was created in 1975, and prior to that time there was just a commissioner. The law allows the deputy commissioner to hire his or her own staff and purchase necessary items and allows the same thing for the commissioner. This must create a problem when they are both working out of the same budget and, for instance, the deputy commissioner makes a purchase and does not notify the commissioner. Senator Neal said such bifurcation of authority would hamper the operation of the veterans' organization and make it less effective. Mr. Pozzi pointed out in the process of reorganizing during the last legislative session, veterans' affairs were put under the Department of Motor Vehicles and Public Safety, so now the organization does have a purchasing agent and budget director. Senator Neal said he can see why there are conflicts, but the law still allows the deputy commissioner to purchase, to employ clerical staff and travel without notifying the commissioner or anybody else. This is the only agency where the deputy commissioner does not report to the commissioner. Dan Johnson, Chairman, Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission, testified from 1993 and 1994 minutes (Exhibit E) of the advisory commission meetings, minutes of the Ely chapter of the Veterans of Foreign Wars and a Notice of Public Meeting from the Office of the Commissioner for Veterans Affairs regarding notification of the public and veterans of the bills being drafted for introduction at the 1995 legislative session. Senator Lowden asked Mr. Johnson if he is the current chairman of the commission, and he replied affirmatively. The senator asked if it is common practice for the advisory commission to post these meetings publicly, but not to notify individuals, except for the commissioner and the deputy commissioner. Mr. Johnson said that is true. Bruce Bertram, Acting President, Vietnam Veterans Association of America, Chapter 388, Carson City, testified regarding the lack of communication between the north and south. He cited the positive actions in the north, such as the veterans' memorial behind the capitol building, the prisoner-of-war flag which flies in front of the capitol building, the visit of the Vietnam wall and license plates for veterans. Mr. Bertram spoke in favor of a veterans' home, which he feels is desperately needed and for which money has been raised through dinners, license plates and other activities. Mr. Bertram advocated cooperation between the north and south so that a veterans' home can be established, and said he does not care if the veterans' home is located in northern or southern Nevada, just so one is established. Senator Lowden expressed her regret about the fragmentation of veterans into so many groups and about the north-south issue. It is her hope that all parties can come together to reconcile their differences. The chairman commented that such a division usually means the lines of authority are not properly defined. Senator Mathews wondered if other states have similar splits. She remarked she does not see how such a group can function well with two people making decisions and making purchases. She said the veterans need to come together and iron out their differences. Thomas R. Vineer, Commander, American Legion, apologized to the committee for the acrimony between the north and south, and expressed his feelings about the veterans' cemeteries and the veterans' home. He called for harmony between the north and south so these goals can be reached. The chairman asked Mr. Vineer how many veterans he represents, and he replied the American Legion in Nevada has a membership of 7,000. Senator Lowden asked Mr. Vineer if he is the commander of all the northern and southern American legionnaires. Mr. Vineer said yes, and upper and lower is the way he likes to refer to the geographical division in the American Legion. Senator Lowden asked if he has a deputy. Mr. Vineer replied he has a first and second vice commander. His first vice commander is in the upper end of the state, and his second vice commander is in the lower end of the state. He delegates responsibility and the authority that goes with it to carry out assignments given to his vice commanders. Senator Lowden asked if Commander Vineer is in favor of the veterans' home. Commander Vineer said he is very much in favor of it, but he has been told in Washington the matching funds would not be available for 3 years. Senator Lowden again asked the north and south to come together and talk and iron out their differences. Ben Duncan, Member, Nevada State Veterans' Advisory Commission, testified he cares about veterans, whether they are in the north or in the south. He hopes the divisiveness can be overcome and thinks when all the veteran associations were put under the Department of Motor Vehicles and Public Safety during the last session, it did create a need for unity. Mr. Duncan asked if this problem could not be referred to the Department of Motor Vehicles and Public Safety, and said he would go along with whatever is good for veterans. The chairman commented that when a number of people are unhappy, there are legitimate reasons why they are unhappy. The committee will listen and hopefully arrive at an answer. He said everyone needs to go forward and take on this north-south issue. Senator Neal said he is disturbed by this because every veteran, and he is one, knows there is a command structure and every serviceman or woman functions under that structure. Two like positions now exist in the structure of Nevada veterans' associations. He does not know how the veterans have been able to function under the present structure. If at one time it made sense to establish a commander and a deputy commander in statute, it does not make sense anymore, and something needs to be done for clarification. Jim Martin, Commander, Veterans of Foreign Wars, District III, and Member, Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission, stated he represents between 1,100 and 1,200 individuals in District III. Mr. Martin said one of the reasons he joined the Veterans of Foreign Wars was to try and bring unity among veterans across the state. He hopes the bills before the committee will help establish unity among veterans by setting common goals. The bickering between north and south must come to an end. Mr. Martin continued by saying the proper organizational structure should eliminate most of the problems. As veterans, the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the Nevada Veterans' Advisory Commission are all in favor of what is best for veterans. He is in favor of the three bills, with the exception of S.B. 162, item 3. He feels all veterans should be covered for burial, whether they served in peacetime or during a conflict. He is personally for the veterans' cemeteries and the veterans' home. Ted E. Deems, Legislative Coordinator, Non-Commissioned Officers Association, stated this association has a membership of 1,136 in the State of Nevada, 160,000 world-wide and operates through a network of some 200 chapters. Mr. Deems suggested consolidation of the separate areas of authority and responsibility of the offices of Nevada Commissioner of Veteran Affairs and the Nevada Deputy Commissioner of Veteran Affairs, indicating this is a better management strategy for the state's veteran programs. Mr. Deems further stated that under the existing law, NRS 417.070, there are two captains at the helm of a ship at the same time, and it does not work. He urges the committee's support of S.B. 161. Donald L. Gustin, State Commander, Veterans of Foreign Wars, State of Nevada, testified that there are 7,102 members in Nevada. Mr. Gustin stated he lives in Reno, and his senior vice-commander lives in Las Vegas; they cooperate with one another and do things together. He hopes with unification, representation and education, all the veterans' groups can come together and work out their differences and not have to bother the Legislature with these problems. Mr. Gustin pointed out that in 10 years, Vietnam veterans will be the largest group of veterans in America. The veterans from World War II and part of the Korean conflict will be gone. Now is the time for action, because the younger veterans will have to replace the older ones. Mr. Gustin further stated he is for these bills, and he especially supports the veterans' home. He asked for the cooperation of all Nevada veterans to get together and get things done before it is too late. Senator Lowden asked Commander Gustin if he would meet with Commander Vineer after this committee adjourns today, have a heart-to-heart talk and come back united with something for the committee. Mr. Gustin said he would do that. Senator Washington complimented Mr. Gustin on his presentation, and said he is honored to be in the presence of veterans who have given so much for their country. He said he was grieved to have the veterans quarreling over such trivial matters. Senator Washington continued by saying he, as well as the chairman, hopes the veterans can sit down together and work out their problems and bring something back to the committee. Mr. Gustin reiterated that time is of the essence in this matter. The veterans must have action now. Chairman Rawson advised that the Legislature tried to pave the way in the past by writing law so that a teaching nursing home could be established, and a section was written into that bill for the veterans' home. There is land and there is the ability to have a veterans' home. The Legislature will try to see that it happens. Mr. Gustin expressed his feelings on S.B. 162, the burial of veterans, saying that there should be no discrimination. It does not matter whether the veteran was a combat veteran or non- combat veteran, the burial reimbursement should cover all. Chairman Rawson pointed out that all the legislators understand the number of veterans in this state and know they are important. Two sessions ago, because there was considerable fighting going on between the different groups, the Legislature seriously considered disbanding all veteran representation. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and that was not done. It is important that the veterans keep a united front before the Legislature. Mr. Gustin said the elimination of infighting is near. The veterans will meet and come to agreement, and they will come back to the committee united. Mr. Gustin went on to say he had been in Washington the previous week and had met President Clinton, who is the veterans best supporter on the hill. However, he continued, he was appalled to learn 17,000 veterans are receiving food stamps. Mr. Gustin thanked the committee for its time, and said again the veterans would sit down together immediately and start working out a program acceptable to all Nevada veterans' groups. Senator Augustine suggested the Commissioner for Veteran Affairs not be included in the group, as he has a vested interest. James P. Weller, Director, Department of Motor Vehicles and Public Safety, advised he is a veteran of Vietnam and had been wounded a couple of times, so he appreciates and understands what the veterans groups are trying to accomplish. He further advised his interest is the same as the committee's, and that is to bring about harmony among the groups so that they can accomplish their goals. Mr. Weller confirmed that there are some communication issues, there are some availability issues and there are some personality issues to be discussed and straightened out. Chairman Rawson said the one thing the committee does not want to happen, and the feeling is very strong about it, is to see a group of veterans cut out of this process. There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned at 4:00 p.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED: __________________________________ Mary Gavin, Committee Secretary APPROVED BY: _____________________________________ Senator Raymond D. Rawson, Chairman DATE: ______________________________________ Senate Committee on Human Resources and Facilities March 20, 1995 Page