MINUTES OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS Sixty-eighth Session February 7, 1995 The Senate Committee on Government Affairs was called to order by Chairman Ann O'Connell, at 5:30 p.m., on Tuesday, February 7, 1995, in Room 4401 of the Grant Sawyer State Office Building, Las Vegas, Nevada. Exhibit A is the Agenda. Exhibit B is the Attendance Roster. COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Senator Ann O'Connell, Chairman Senator Jon C. Porter Senator William R. O'Donnell Senator Dina Titus Senator Raymond C. Shaffer COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT: Senator William J. Raggio, (Excused) Senator Randolph J. Townsend, Vice Chairman, (Excused) STAFF MEMBERS PRESENT: Dana Bennett, Senior Research Analyst Mary Hernandez, Secretary Molly Dondero, Committee Secretary Tanya Morrison, Committee Secretary OTHERS PRESENT: Tom Stown, Concerned Citizen Kathryn Ferguson, Registrar of Voters, Clark County Mary Henderson, Director, Washoe County Government Affairs Jack Kenney, Concerned Citizen Al Westcott, Concerned Citizen Mike Pasek, Concerned Citizen Robert Rose, Concerned Citizen Nana Ashley, Election Board Operations, Clark County Election Department Chairman O'Connell opened the hearing at 5:30 p.m. She began by introducing the committee members present to the audience in Las Vegas and video-conference audience in Carson City. She told the audience Nevada is the only state which has the ability to video-conference meetings and hearings. She explained they will be hearing election issues, but a bill number has not been assigned at this time. Tom Stown, Concerned Citizen, told the committee he is a retired airline pilot. He stated he has much experience in computers and inertial navigation equipment and technology. He explained with his background he takes an interest in the electronic voting and voting equipment. He commented in the past year he has spoken with many individuals who are concerned about the loopholes in the election process. He told the committee he testified in 1993, when Senate Bill (S.B.) 250 of the Sixty-seventh Session plugged loopholes which dealt with the punchcard ballot system. SENATE BILL 250 OF THE SIXTY-SEVENTH SESSION: Makes various changes to provisions governing elections. Mr. Stown thanked the legislative body for passing that bill, but he stated certain loopholes still exist which he would like addressed in the next election issue bill. He told the committee the residents of Nevada want honest elections. He noted Clark County is getting a reputation like Chicago for having bad elections and he would like to see that eliminated. He emphasized citizens of this state want honest elections so they can believe the candidates voted for had a fair chance to get elected. Additionally, Nevada citizens could reject the individuals they did not want in office with an honest election. He emphasized the importance of the United States, which has a democratic process setting it above all other countries. He told the committee they need to protect this voting system and make sure it is secure, honest, adaptable and reliable so voters are not frustrated. Mr. Stown pointed out there is a growing movement in the United States of frustrated citizens who feel their country is being threatened and their liberty is at stake. He declared voter fraud has not been investigated because there is no evidence. He insisted the citizens are trying to document the information on voter fraud and bring it to the legislators. He stressed the legislators must do something to prevent fraud. He gave the legislators a couple of examples of voter fraud in the past. Mr. Stown suggested they remove some language regarding the cameras at the election polls. He told the committee the cameras should be allowed anytime, not just after the polls close. He explained there have been some incidents recently where video cameras have not been allowed at the election polls. He added some voters were treated very rudely even though they were very polite to the officers. They were thrown out of the election poll area and Mr. Stown has it documented on a videotape which he has shared with Chairman O'Connell. He told the committee when he and some other individuals walked into the election poll with a camera, Kathryn Ferguson, Registrar of Voters, ordered the metropolitan police to throw them out of the building. Mr. Stown stated he was told they needed to have a press pass to bring a camera into the polling area. One individual with Mr. Stown had a press pass, but they were told it only applied to the public media. He emphasized even with the press pass, Ms. Ferguson had them thrown out. He told the committee the law does not state anything about the media or the official press. Mr. Stown returned later to the polling area with a tape recorder hooked to his belt, a walkman type tape player, and he was told to leave. He explained to the officials he did not have the tape machine on, but they made him leave the building anyway. He told the committee how they videotaped the boxes of ballots transported to Cashman Field and they recorded boxes with missing seals, broken seals and open seals. He pointed out it was all the paper seals, there was only one wire seal that was unhooked. He emphasized they were replacing new seals on the boxes right there and then sending the ballots upstairs to be counted. He told the committee they asked the election division later if there were any boxes with broken seals. The committee denied it until Mr. Stown's videotape got around. The exact number of broken boxes and seals was reported to the newspaper. Senator Porter asked whether it was metropolitan police or school police who interfered with the gentleman who was ejected from the election polls with his camera. Mr. Stown stated they were school board police, but dressed like metropolitan police. He told the committee the man who was harassed did file a formal complaint against the police. Mr. Stown told the committee when the polls are closed poll workers count the ballots. He explained the poll workers take the sleeves out of the ballots and place them in boxes (called transfer cases) which are supposed to have a wire seal to protect the box from being tampered with. He told the committee once these boxes are clicked closed they have to be broken to get them open. They are also numbered. He emphasized the boxes used in Clark County consist of some kind of cardboard, a blue plastic-type cardboard similar to material for political signs. He stressed to the committee members these boxes can be pried open enough to get a hand in them to pull ballots out without damaging the box and without breaking the seal. He further explained there is a seal which is supposed to be put on these boxes after they have been closed with the wire seal. These seals have the name of the precinct and so forth on them. Mr. Stown stated a gentleman, who will testify to this, went to the election department to see if he could get his hand in the box without breaking either the wire or plastic tape seal. He could get his hand in the box without breaking the seal. He also could peel the plastic seal off without causing damage to the box. He stressed this gentleman repeated this peeling process five times without damaging the seal. Mr. Stown insisted the elections division needs metal boxes which must be damaged to get into or several wire seals to make it impossible to get into the box without damaging the seals. Mr. Stown told the committee his last point is, if one of the ballot boxes goes into the precinct with a broken seal or damage, the votes inside are disqualified. He stressed the boxes need to be made durable with a strong seal to ensure the only way it could be broken is when there is foul play causing the breakage. In summation, it is Mr. Stown's recommendation to the legislators to add to the current law, the ballots must be put into metal, tamper-proof boxes with seals which cannot be broken except deliberately. The ballot boxes must be observed by any nonpartisan group or individual with cameras and the boxes must be transferred to the trunk of the vehicle so they cannot be tampered with on the way to the tallying point. The poll watchers should follow the cars to the collection point so the occupants of the transfer car do not stop off somewhere and tamper with the ballots. Mr. Stown stressed these suggestions are common security as far as he can see. Senator Porter asked Mr. Stown how he feels about the voting machines. Mr. Stown stated Direct Record Electronic (DRE) or Sequoia voting machines means the vote does not start on a paper document. He told the committee an optical scan machine which uses computers just like the DRE and is just as sophisticated and, in fact, faster than the DRE. Nevertheless, it starts as a paper ballot which the voter marks. He emphasized once the ballot is marked it becomes a permanent record of that vote. He stated they run the ballot through the optical scan machine and they are used in Washoe County. He explained if a recount is required there is something to recount. Mr. Stown stated with a recount, a computer will just give a printout of the same numbers it printed out the first time. With a paper ballot it would be like an audit, there would be something to go back and look at to track the votes. He asked the committee if there was a failure of a fuse on the computer after 5,000 votes, how would election officials reconstruct those votes afterwards. He stated they could not track them if there was no paper ballot. He gave the committee an example of one election in which a candidate's name was left off the ballot. Because it was a punchcard machine, they could take the punchcard and recount the ballots. He pointed out it was a programming error. Mr. Stown stated there is a problem with every kind of computerized machine, but there is a tracking system on the machines with a paper ballot. He emphasized the Sequoia does not have a paper tracking process and therefore no tracking device. Senator O'Donnell stated he viewed the tape Mr. Stown referred to previously and concurred with the testimony of these individuals ejection from the polling area. Mr. Stown explained his concerns to the committee regarding the current voting system and the proposed Sequoia system. He pointed out in Exhibit C, which is a rough draft of Bill Draft Request (BDR) 24-1218 all of his concerns. He urged the committee to make some improvements in the election department. BILL DRAFT REQUEST 24-1218: Makes various changes concerning elections. Kathryn Ferguson, Registrar of Voters, Clark County, spoke to the committee on the election issues. She asked Senator O'Donnell what specifically he saw while viewing the tape from the election polls from Mr. Stown. Senator O'Donnell stated he saw the entire tape and he stated he saw Ms. Ferguson throw the gentlemen out of the polling room. He emphasized he saw the ballot boxes without the tape seals also. Ms. Ferguson asked him how many boxes he saw without seals. Senator O'Donnell stated he could remember seeing five or six. He pointed out in 1986 the Republican Party appointed him to view and certify the election that year. He explained during that time there was an incredible amount of anomalies in the voting system. He clarified one problem was the ballot boxes were not sealed and the seals that were being used are very similar to what he saw on the videotape. He and his democratic counterpart, then, made a complaint to the county manager and stated they did not feel the seals were appropriate or working at all. He pointed out the seals were changed the next election year to resemble packing slips and were much more difficult to remove. He explained the seals he saw on the videotape were similar to the ones viewed in 1986 which were inadequate. Ms. Ferguson stated she has not seen the videotape herself which she states is not unusual. She told the committee the only person she has spoken with who had seen the video was Mary Hynes, Reporter, Las Vegas Review Journal. She stated Ms. Hynes requested to come to the registrar's office to review the records. Ms. Ferguson stated Ms. Hynes spent much time reviewing records and found nothing to support the allegations made. Senator O'Donnell told Ms. Ferguson during the 1986 campaign there were two opposing candidates whose ballot count was very close. He stressed there were several instances where the ballots had crumpled through the machines and at one point they decided to recount that particular race the night of elections. He explained when they recounted the ballots the count was different, so it was recounted a third time with the count different again. Senator O'Donnell stated he wanted to recount the ballots a fourth time and the elections' chief then, did not want to recount the ballots. However, he insisted or threatened to call the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) so they did recount the ballots a fourth time. He told the committee they got an answer similar to the second count. He pointed out the following year the election department was completely opened up to the press or anyone who wanted to go into the computer count room and the reason for this was public knowledge and information. Ms. Ferguson stated the reason Mr. Stown and his people were removed from the polling place was because they were interfering with the voting processes and she had legitimate reason for removing them. She explained they were told they could stay without the camera because they were recording people down in the receiving centers who were receiving the ballots. Ms. Ferguson stated one gentleman actually tried to reach inside a ballot box and interfere with the process. She emphasized that was before they came upstairs to film in the tabulation room and therefore they were told to leave because of interference with the process. She stated personally she has no problem with individuals filming if they do not interfere with the work. She told the committee election day is a long day and their job is very hard and stressful and they do not need the interference. She explained there is a very fine line between filming for the openness of the process and harassment. Ms. Ferguson testified there is a long history with Mr. Stown, the election department and herself personally. She insisted he uses his video camera as harassment at public hearings and at the election department. His coming and going repeatedly interferes with the work of the election workers and department. She pointed out this was intimidating to her employees while they are trying to do their job. She told the committee the district attorney's office informed her she could keep Mr. Stown out of the election department with his camera for that very reason. Ms. Ferguson emphasized the story is not as Mr. Stown is presenting it and she added she has no problem with having an open process. She maintained these are the reasons they removed him and his group. Ms. Ferguson referred to Exhibit C and told the committee she has no problem with number one and two if they do not interfere with the voting process. She stated concerning number three, the election department does have the padlock seals which are uniquely numbered. She explained the committee members would have to know the procedures that take place at the polls to understand their use. She stated after the polls close, the polling officials count the number of signatures of voters and then they count the ballots. They must rectify the two and finally fill out an official ballot statement. She told the committee on the ballot statement for each precinct the chairman writes the number of the seal which will seal the ballots in the ballot box. The county liaison then checks the statement to make sure the seal number was written down correctly, and then they both sign the statement which is then put into that ballot box and then sealed with the seal. She emphasized there were no broken wire seals during this election. Senator Porter asked if there is a master list used to keep track of the seals, their numbers and how many are used. Nana Ashley, Election Board Operations, Clark County Election Department, told the committee the original copy of the official ballot statement has the recorded number of the padlock. The box goes to Cashman Field for counting. She explained the copy from that is removed before it is sealed inside the ballot box and the copy goes in one direction and the box goes in another direction with two different individuals. She pointed out when they meet up at Cashman Field, the padlock serial number must match the original copy in the box and also match the copy that came in with an individual from the election department and also two delegates from opposing parties who are looking at those ballots at all times. She told the committee concerning a picture taken at the election polls, she held the box up for that picture which was taken and to show that the lock was clearly closed. Senator Porter asked if there is a master list of the sequential numbers on the locks. Ms. Ashley stated there is not. Ms. Ferguson told the committee she would not have a problem with number three on Exhibit C, although there would be some cost impact of having locks and keys and she stated there may be a problem with keeping up with the keys which if lost could delay the counting of the ballots. She explained if they track the seals and the correct procedures are in place tracking keys is not necessary. Chairman O'Connell asked if there is any identification on the paper seals. She explained in Mr. Stown's testimony he mentioned the lock could still be in place. However, anyone could slip a hand into the ballot box with the lock secure and the paper seal broken. Ms. Ferguson stated she had a member of her staff with her who would testify it is not true someone came into the poll and put a hand into the ballot box with the lock secured. She explained the only way anyone could wedge anything in is by folding it tightly and squeezing it through the side. She told the committee she brought a ballot box and seal and offered to assemble it for the committee so they could try to slip a hand into the box. Chairman O'Connell asked if there is any kind of identification to cross check the paper seal and the lock seal. Ms. Ferguson stated the paper seal goes across the opening of the box and the election board officers sign it. She explained although there were claims some seals were broken, no seals were completely broken, some were torn a little bit. She pointed out the ones which were torn were being sealed over, not to hide the fact that they were torn, but because that system was in place in the outlying receiving centers where they have to come in farther to Cashman Field. She emphasized if they are already torn when received, they go ahead and put another seal over the torn one. She stressed they mark on the sheets which boxes they reseal. Ms. Ferguson stated when Mary Hynes brought this to her attention she was not aware they were resealing torn seals at Cashman Field. She does not see the need for this procedure and is now asking them not to reseal the boxes. Ms. Ferguson insisted the counting boards in Cashman Field have paperwork with very strict procedures for the punch cards. She explained the first board is the acceptance board where checks are made to assure the seals are intact. If either seal is not intact or is torn, the board notes that on a "Precinct Problem Report" for each precinct. She told the committee they do not open the box, they just note the problem and the next board checks to make sure the seals match. She pointed out any irregularities are documented for the 22-month retention period. She assured the committee boxes were resealed because of torn seals and none of them were completely broken. She reiterated in no case was a wire seal open nor in any case were both the seals undone. Ms. Ashley stated the seal itself has a space to be completed which shows the precinct number which the ballots came from. It has a space for the total number of voted ballots inside the box and all three election members sign it. She explained in order to put a new seal on it would require all three members to sign again. He stated only two of the members are in the vehicle and return the boxes to the receiving center and the third member goes home. Ms. Ashley told the committee in response to Mr. Stown's suggestion to disqualify votes if the seal is broken, she would not support that. She explained election personnel cannot afford to throw out voters valid ballots because of a mistake by election board officers. She admitted human error does occur even though election personnel have been trained thoroughly before election day. Senator Porter asked to try to put his hand into the ballot box. When he tried, he did indeed get his hand in and stated he would be able to pull ballots out of the box. He asked if the ballots are packaged or banded together inside the box. Ms. Ferguson stated ballots are rubber banded together. She repeated the number of ballots in the box is on the paper seal and inside on the official ballot statement and again on the duplicate official ballot statement which goes with another individual. Senator Porter asked whether these boxes were new or had they been used for quite a few elections. Ms. Ferguson stated they have been used since 1990. She told the committee she used metal boxes in the past and she is not opposed to having metal ballot boxes. Senator Porter stated it would be a minimal investment to find a different mechanism to store and transport ballots which would give comfort to individuals who question the process. He emphasized he appreciates all of the volunteers. He pointed out there are hundreds of volunteers (from senior citizens to young people) who work a long day, so he suggests another mechanism to help prevent perception problems. Ms. Ferguson stated they would consider metal ballot boxes. Senator O'Donnell asked when the seal was placed onto the box that the senators in Las Vegas have been examining and that Senator Porter could get his hand inside during this meeting. Ms. Ferguson stated the seal had just been placed on the box 10 minutes prior to this questioning. Senator O'Donnell asked Chairman O'Connell if she would take the ballot box and see if she could pull the paper seal off without damaging the box or seal. She tried it and succeeded in pulling the seal off without damaging the box. She repeated this process a couple of times without damage to the box or seal. Senator O'Donnell stated that was the kind of seal the election division had in 1986 and he emphasized they do not work. Chairman O'Connell stated in Exhibit C they suggest a metal box with a lock. She feels this would secure the ballots and there would not be a question whether or not someone could tamper with them. She pointed out Ms. Ferguson stated she prefers the metal boxes. Senator Porter asked Ms. Ferguson what the count was on the vote by the county to invest in the election equipment. Ms. Ferguson stated the vote was five to two to purchase 1300 machines. Senator Porter asked what that would do to the boxes. Ms. Ferguson stated there would still be a result cartridge which would be put into red boxes of the same make, so they will still need to be secured with an official ballot statement inside. Senator Porter asked if Sequoia had made any recommendations regarding containers. Ms. Ferguson stated Sequoia suggests envelopes, but she reiterated even if someone could remove the seal, the three election board officers have signed it, one of whom does not accompany the boxes to the counting center. She pointed out it would take collusion among the three, two of whom must be of opposing political parties. She emphasized the election board uses members other than just democrats and republicans. Chairman O'Connell asked if it is possible to have the individual who finds a damaged box replace the seal and initial so it can be tracked if necessary. Ms. Ferguson stated that has been a possibility, but she changed the procedure too so the new seal is not placed over the existing seal. She explained they would place the new seal off to the side so they can view the condition of the existing seal. She told the committee that would only be happening at the outlying receiving centers and Las Vegas only has four, everything else goes directly to Cashman Field. Chairman O'Connell asked why the public has been discouraged from being at the election polls and then following the ballots to the collection center at Cashman. Ms. Ferguson stated she has no knowledge of the public having been discouraged from observing the process at any point in the procedures. She maintained the individuals can follow the car or observe the ballots being taken to the counting center if they do not interfere with the process, get in the way or speak to the election workers. Chairman O'Connell asked if there is any publicity about where the collection centers are located so the public is aware. Ms. Ferguson stated they publish that information. She explained they cannot publish the time the ballots are taken to the counting center because it depends on how many voters they had and how long it took that particular board to close to balance. However, they always publish the locations. Senator Titus asked if there is some kind of time limit set when the team of two leave the polling place to take the ballots to Cashman Center. Ms. Ashley stated the time the team of two leaves is recorded on the official ballot statement. It is locked inside the box so if they are delayed 2 or 3 hours someone would begin looking for them. She emphasized they are checked in by precinct. Ms. Ferguson stated the time is again recorded upon the point of receipt of the ballots at Cashman Center. She explained to the committee the ballots are all accounted for on the official ballot statement. This statement includes how many were used, how many were spoiled, how many were voted and how many signatures there were. She emphasized this is all balanced out and there are no extra ballots to play with. Chairman O'Connell asked how they will implement the tracking system used now with the new voting machine. Ms. Ferguson explained when a voter makes their choice on the face of the ballot, it is shown to them on a video window into the ballot box. She insisted this is the only voting system which has that feature. She continued stating it verifies the individual it states on the ballot is the one internal in the machine who is actually receiving their vote. She maintained this is an added security to let the voter know the candidate who they are casting their vote for is the candidate receiving their vote. Ms. Ferguson told the committee once the voter reviews his ballot, the voter presses the "cast vote" button. The ballot is tabulated electronically at that moment. She explained it gives the vote to every candidate selected and is added to their summary total immediately. She pointed out at the same time it captures an electronic image of the ballot, which is in random order, to protect the privacy of the ballot. She explained to the committee, by law a voter cannot receive a receipt of how they voted. She stated when the polls are closed, there is a printout of the total votes cast on that particular machine which is posted for public viewing. She explained any candidate or member of the public can trace that through and determine that is in fact what came out in the final canvas. She explained there is a two-part receipt given to the voter as they go to the machine. One part is given when they go to the machine and the voter keeps the other part. The part which is kept helps the signatures, receipts and total ballots cast on the machine. She told the committee there is a public counter on the machine of every ballot ever cast on it and that is part of the official ballot statement. It also shows every ballot cast in the history of that machine and has an election day counter which is what is balanced out on the paperwork. She stated the individual ballot images are printed out and stored for the required retention period. They are balanced against that machine's totals on a certain percentage and the precincts against the final canvassing, so the paperwork is there. Chairman O'Connell stated she is very concerned because of an editorial she had read that morning concerning the Sequoia machine. Washoe County reviewed and rejected the machine for the same reasons mentioned in the editorial. She asked Ms. Ferguson to address the concerns such as fixing an election or how easy having an election thrown would be because of the programmer. Ms. Ferguson stated regarding Washoe County, they conducted a mock election with four vendors in it to see how the voters felt about the machines. She emphasized the voters overwhelmingly prefer the Sequoia Pacific machine and they did not prefer the one Mary Henderson, Registrar of Voters, Washoe County, is recommending to the board. Ms. Ferguson pointed out it is her understanding the board of commissioners have not approved any machine, but the voters approved the Sequoia machine. Chairman O'Connell asked if the voters had help when they went in to vote on the machines in the mock election and was it a concern they would not have help during the real election while voting on these machines. Ms. Ferguson stated if voter education had not been done and it is a first time for a voter, they would get an explanation on a sample ballot. She pointed out this type of voter explanation is not unusual. Senator Porter stated he had the opportunity to use the Sequoia machine and he liked using it, although he did have some frustrations. He asked Ms. Ferguson what the results were of the survey done on the Sequoia. Ms. Ferguson stated 95 percent of the voters surveyed, which was nearly 6,000 voters, approved of the machine, 3 percent were neutral and 2 percent disapproved. Senator Porter listened and asked voters what they thought about the machine and his impression is not positive. He stated a thorough printout would be very nice to have to help solve some problems. He emphasized a printout may not be an option available to those voting machines, but something similar a gas pump receipt. He told the committee the only complaints he did hear were the voters were not quite sure for whom they voted. He asked if adding a thermal printer in the future would be possible. Ms. Ferguson stated adding a receipt printer would not be an impossibility, but it depends on what the voters would want on the receipt. Senator Porter asked what is the percentage of error between the card system and the electronic system. Ms. Ferguson stated during the 1994 elections there were numerous problems with optical scan systems such as the one Marlene Henderson is supporting to purchase. She explained because of optical scan system problems, North Carolina has currently sent out a letter to all optical scan vendors and asked them to appear before the board of elections to provide any evidence why they should not decertify their equipment because of the lack of accuracy. She told the committee there are all sorts of problems with optical scan systems beginning with the ballot printing which is precision. She explained the accuracy rate is the lowest with an optical scan system and she emphasized the punch card system has a better accuracy rate than an optical scan system. She pointed out the electronic system is 100 percent accurate. She told the committee the particular machine they are purchasing has been challenged in court twice and withstood that challenge. Senator Titus asked if a ballot can be traced back to the voter. Ms. Ferguson stated that is not possible because they are secret ballots. Senator Titus pointed out the individuals who are requesting carbon copies of their ballots need to understand it is the law to keep ballots secret. Ms. Ferguson stated the problem with a paper-based system is the origin of the paper ballot is unknown. She maintained the paper ballot is the most easily manipulated voting system which exists. Senator Shaffer asked if the machine is manufactured in the United States. Ms. Ferguson stated it is manufactured in Jamestown, New York. Senator O'Donnell asked if there was any redundancy in the machine at all. Ms. Ferguson stated there are three different redundantly stored audit trails in that machine. She explained one is the summary candidate total, another is the individual electronic ballot images of every ballot cast, and then there is a summary total to make sure the votes are correctly calculated. She stated the third redundancy is that the machine has an internal time clock and a date stamp. It stamps the time on everything that happens on the machine from the time it is opened and prepared for an election. She emphasized if at any point the calculations do not add up correctly, the machine will automatically shut itself down to maintain the integrity of the vote up to that point. She challenged what Mr. Stown said about New Orleans is not true. She stated when the city of New Orleans received 800 machines, there were two failures in the boards, but the machines did not fail during a national election. Senator O'Donnell clarified his question regarding the redundancy. He was following up a previous question from Senator Porter regarding a redundant paper trail allowing the use of the computer as a voting machine, but at least have some kind of paper backup. He asked if there is any other redundant storage of those votes other than the detachable memory chip. Ms. Ferguson stated they do print the thermal paper trail. She explained they print the individual ballot images off of each machine. They have the summary report which is posted at the polls for the voters and public to view. Additionally there is a second copy that accompanies the results' cartridge to Cashman Field. She told the committee all of that can be tied back to the precinct totals and the cumulative report on the final canvas. She pointed out they transfer all that information into a file in a computer which is another check system. Senator O'Donnell stated he understands the check and balance system of the Sequoia after Ms. Ferguson's explanation. He explained he had thought there was a magnetic card which is removed and sent to the ballot counting centers. Ms. Ferguson stated the Sequoia has a cartridge which does not accept any external instructions. She explained it is a one-to-one correlation, specifically one cartridge to one machine. She emphasized these cartridges are set up from the beginning of the election and at that point the voting machines will not accept any other cartridge. She stressed there are no modems which can tap into these machines and there are no phone lines going into them. She emphasized no system is 100 percent tamper-proof, but she stated this is the most secure system because of all the internal controls. Senator O'Donnell stated his concern is static electricity, which can erase the memory, and some elections are decided by very few votes. He reiterated there is an actual vote-for-vote redundant system by which one record goes to the disc drive and another record goes to the programmable chip. He explained the programmable chip could be taken out for the vote count. He asked if the chip fails in the existing system, is there a backup on a disc, tape drive, thermal print or anything. Ms. Ferguson stated the redundancy is on the results' cartridge, the machine memory and on the printout. She pointed out she could provide third party test data from the New York City contract where they spent $1.5 million having this system tested by a third party. She offered to give the committee a demonstration of the Sequoia machine. Senator Titus asked how soon the Sequoia would be put into use in the entire state. Ms. Ferguson stated there should be county wide implementation of the system for the 1996 elections. Mary Henderson, Director, Washoe County Government Affairs, offered to answer some questions for the committee on the Sequoia machines. Chairman O'Connell asked if Washoe County has decided to purchase the Sequoia machines or are they still in the process of making a decision. Ms. Henderson stated there has been a draft prepared to go to the registrar, although the board of county commissioners has taken no official action to accept the optical scanner. Chairman O'Connell asked Ms. Henderson to explain why the registrar of voters rejected the Sequoia in Washoe County. Ms. Henderson explained how they handled the mock election in February of 1994. She told the committee they set up four vendors in the voter registrar's office and then invited in poll workers, party individuals, commissioners, county employees and the public to come in to test the machines. She pointed out the Sequoia system was the pick by the public. She estimated it received a 68 percent approval rating. She stated the scanner system was 57 percent. She explained this past fall, during the election, the secretary of state allowed them to put the scanner into assembly district 37 which has 39 precincts. She emphasized it was used in an actual election and no problems were reported to the registrar's office. She surmised that was why they made the recommendation to use that particular system. She suggested the committee and all involved individuals look into the North Carolina problem and some of the accuracy issues which were brought forward. Chairman O'Connell asked why they rejected the Sequoia system. Ms. Henderson stated they did not reject it entirely on the paper trail, but one of the reasons for recommending the optical scanner was the cost. She explained the registrar felt it was less expensive and only one has to go into a polling place versus three or four of the Sequoia systems. She told the committee the other issue they considered was the labor intensive 20-year-old Votematic system. She stated because of ballot growth and issues, they have to retool the system completely. Ms. Henderson also expressed a problem with storage space. The optical scanner system would free up about 3,000 to 4,000 square feet of office space and allow the registrar's office to expand. Chairman O'Connell asked Ms. Henderson if her office feels there is an adequate safeguard regarding the paper trail. Ms. Henderson stated the registrar wanted to have the paper trail and that is one of the major considerations in the voting machine option their office chose. She gave the committee written recommendations and research on the optical scanner which is Exhibit D. Jack Kenney, Concerned Citizen, told the committee he has some experience with counting ballots and he stressed he does not want to attack the institution, but he expressed concern there is not a lot of positive control. He explained the need for checks and balances in the government system. He told the committee the ballot boxes can be bought by anyone and they are not accounted for, therefore they could be switched. Mr. Kenney pointed out there was an overrun 2 years ago of either 45,000 or 90,000 ballots. He emphasized it would be very easy to print up extra ballots and then switch the boxes on the way to the counting center. He suggested the committee ask for a management plan with checks and balances. Al Westcott, Concerned Citizen, spoke to the committee on the election issue. He read from prepared testimony (Exhibit E). He told the committee after reading his written testimony, simply stated they are buying a piece of equipment that is obsolete at a cost of $6.4 million. He stated secondarily they will need a backup system for absentee voting. He urged the committee to try to overturn the vote taken this day by the county commission to buy this voting machine. Mr. Westcott expressed his displeasure at the county commission meeting when each testifier was limited to a mere 2 minutes. He explained, if this is an open government, the citizens need to need to finish their testimony and express their point-of-view. He emphasized the purchase of a $6.4 million machine, by Clark County, certainly deserved more than 2 minutes of testimony from constituents. He drew attention to the fact these machines will probably be used by many of the next generation of voters and they must meet standards not only set in today's society, but for the future as well. Senator O'Donnell told Mr. Westcott he would like to ask him some questions regarding the internal workings of the Sequoia machine. He stated his understanding is this machine accepts a ballot and each ballot is different for each precinct. He asked Mr. Westcott to explain that aspect of the machine. Mr. Westcott stated each machine is set up differently for each precinct. He told the committee it is his understanding each machine has to be programmed separately. Senator O'Donnell asked if each precinct must have its own program for each machine, he stressed a copy of that program should be disseminated to the public in some way. He explained the public would then know this program is valid. He told the committee mistakes are made when systems are programmed and therefore he is curious why it is not necessary to see the source code on the ballot machine. He emphasized the possibility for error could be quite high and he wondered where the checks and balances would occur. He asked if that responsibility would be in the hands of one person doing the programming or would there be a group who would analyze that particular program. Mr. Westcott stated problems can occur in today's technology. He explained when dealing with electronic input, things could happen such as the chips from the voting machines being erased accidentally. He emphasized if there is going to be an error, the error should be in favor of the citizens of the State of Nevada. He told the committee they should consider all of the alternatives of the worst case scenarios. He explained in dealing with the worst case scenarios can they get on to more positive issues. Mike Pasek, Concerned Citizen, told the committee he also saw the tape Mr. Stown spoke to the committee about earlier. He explained he was one of the cameramen involved in making the tape and many of his clips are on the tape. He stated he heard Ms. Ferguson make some misstatements and he wanted to set the committee straight on a couple of issues. He explained his first point is Ms. Ferguson stated his group was interfering with the process at Cashman Field, but he stressed that is not true. He stated his group, including Mr. Stown were very cooperative, they just wanted to witness the voting process that night. He insisted some individuals who worked at the election department and some individuals present at this meeting did not treat his group fairly and were unruly toward him. For instance, he asked a gentleman to step aside so he could videotape a certain area and the gentleman would not move. He pointed out this is on the tape seen by Chairman O'Connell. Mr. Pasek stated he has always been a law-abiding citizen and he feels Ms. Ferguson and the election department have no right to tell him he has interfered in the past with any election process. He explained to the committee he had never met Mr. Stown before the night of that election, he was simply there to do an independent study on his own. Mr. Pasek stated the night of the election he requested to see one of the transfer ballot boxes. He applied the sticky seal over the wire seal and could pull it off without damage to the box, just as Chairman O'Connell did earlier in this meeting. He repeated this several times with no damage to the tape or box. He explained, in addition, he pushed the wire seal in approximately halfway and the box still looked sealed. He emphasized he could pry the box open and stick his hand into it without causing damage to the wire seal or the sticky seal. He concluded anyone could easily remove and replace the ballots. He emphasized these boxes are not safe and they should question an election department which chooses a box with so many security problems, and when they choose a machine like the Sequoia which is expensive and has so many questionable cross check features. Mr. Pasek stated he has some problems with Exhibit C, the proposed bill draft request. His first objection is to number three which requires a lock that opens with a key. He suggested they do not have a key because there are master keys available to most locks. His second objection is to number nine which requires all sealed containers to consist of metal and rigidly constructed. He explained he is an electrician and he works with metal on a regular basis and he stated metal can be manipulated. He emphasized he wants the containers to be rigidly constructed. Chairman O'Connell asked Mr. Pasek for any suggestions he might have to alleviate the problems he has with the bill draft request. Mr. Pasek stated if they continue using the seals they have on the current ballot boxes, have the workers at the polling areas verify they have sealed the seals, physically by pulling on them before the boxes leave the precinct. He pointed out if there are individuals in the precinct watching with videotape that sealing process can be verified. He told the committee he would like to see an independent investigation of all the discrepancies which have happened during this election. He stated it is his opinion the press has not been covering this problem properly. He emphasized he would like to see a state investigation or some type of independent investigation which could cover many of the points raised. He asked the committee if there would be any chance of getting an investigation. Chairman O'Connell stated after the last election an investigation was requested. The police department investigated and testified during the hearing, but no other action was taken. She said she would ask for an investigation. She explained during the election reform of the last session, this committee tried to overcome the areas which were blatantly abused. Robert Rose, Concerned Citizen, told the committee he observed many disturbing events during the last primary and even during the elections 2 years ago. He explained his first concern is ballot boxes inside the precincts. He stated he saw no locks on these ballot boxes. They were closed with shower curtain rings. He emphasized this was not only in his precinct, but he went into another precinct and saw the same thing, no locks. He explained to the committee he was at Cashman Field on election night. He stated he went immediately to the second floor where the counting room was located. He pointed out there was another gentleman there with a press pass. He told the committee he and the others with him were asked to leave even though they had a press pass and were not causing any problems. Mr. Rose stated there was no harassment to the election workers or Ms. Ferguson and they did ask why they had to leave. They were told it was for privacy reasons. He explained after they were asked to leave, he went downstairs and stood on the sidewalk to film the precinct boxes coming into headquarters. He emphasized he was bothering no one and he was still asked to leave. Mr. Rose spoke to someone inside the building and after approximately 5 minutes was allowed to film outside the building. He told the committee from 10 to 15 percent of the precinct boxes he filmed were sealed from the backside over to the edge. The boxes were open at least an inch to an inch and a half with the wire seals still intact. He asked the county commissioners if they wanted to see the tape and not one of them asked for a copy. Mr. Stown asked to give a rebuttal to Ms. Ferguson's testimony. He gave the committee a copy of the security and control report, Exhibit F . He furnished copies of articles from newspapers, investigators of voting machines and results from other states using these machines on a trial basis along with more information on the Sequoia voting machine marked Exhibit G. He explained Exhibit G includes a cost analysis on the Sequoia, Global and Votematic which he feels is important. He then gave the committee members each a Sequoia ballot image, (Exhibit H). Mr. Stown emphasized he has disagreed with Ms. Ferguson in the past, but he maintained he has never been rude to her or harassed her in any way. He told the committee the tape from the election department shows that he treats them with respect, although he does assert his rights. He stressed when he was forced to leave, he did leave. He told the committee he has other videotapes of county commission meetings where he did testify along with Ms. Ferguson. Mr. Stown explained he had his camera at these meetings because he wanted to record what went on at these meetings. He stated he can prove what Ms. Ferguson is saying is character assassination, because she cannot refute what he has said. He pointed out he sticks strictly to the facts. Mr. Stown told the committee there was no testing done on the Sequoia before it was certified in Nevada. He emphasized there should be an expert test of these machines before they pass for certification in this state. He explained to the committee how the Sequoia is programmed. Senator Porter stated Mr. Stown has made some key complaints, but he has some suggestions to help expedite for the next election. His first suggestion was for the complaints to be put on paper so this committee could follow up with individuals who could answer these questions. Mr. Stown told the committee he would put all these complaints on paper with summaries. He pointed out there is some information the committee would need in the exhibits he has already given them. Chairman O'Connell adjourned the meeting at 8:45 p.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED: Teri J. Spraggins Committee Secretary APPROVED BY: Senator Ann O'Connell, Chairman DATE: Senate Committee on Government Affairs February 7, 1995 Page