MINUTES OF THE JOINT SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING OF SENATE COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS Sixty-eighth Session April 6, 1995 The joint subcommittee meeting on PublicSafety/Natural Resources/Transportation of the Senate Committee on Finance and the Assembly Committee on Ways and Means was called to order by Chairman Lawrence E. Jacobsen at 8:00 a.m., on Thursday, April 6, 1995, in Room 321 of the Legislative Building, Carson City, Nevada. Exhibit A is the Agenda. Exhibit B is the Attendance Roster. SENATE COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Senator Lawrence E. Jacobsen, Chairman Senator William R. O'Donnell ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Thomas A. Fettic, Chairman Mr. Larry L. Spitler, Chairman Mr. Morse Arberry, Jr. Mr. John W. Marvel Mr. Jack D. Close Ms. Chris Giunchigliani SENATE COMMITTEE MEMBERS ABSENT: Senator Bernice Mathews (Excused) STAFF MEMBERS PRESENT: Dan Miles, Fiscal Analyst Gary Ghiggeri, Principal Deputy Fiscal Analyst Jeanne L. Botts, Program Analyst Judy Jacobs, Committee Secretary OTHERS PRESENT: Peter G. Morros, Director, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources Roy W. Trenoweth, State Forester Firewarden, Division of Forestry, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources Mike Nolan, Budget Analyst, Budget Division, Department of Administration Ronan Thornhill, Forestry Staff Specialist Camp Coordinator, Division of Forestry, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources Robert E. Bayer, Director, Department of Prisons Robin Bates, Chief, Classification and Planning, Department of Prisons John Holmes, Concerned Citizen John E. Neill, Chief, Fiscal Services, Department of Prisons Patricia R. Justice, Lobbyist, Clark County Karen Winkler, Attorney, Attorneys for Criminal Justice James J. Jackson, State Public Defender, Office of the State Public Defender Senator Jacobsen opened the hearing on the Department of Conservation and Natural Resources and the Forestry Honor Camps. He invited Mr. Morros to give an overview. Forestry Honor Camps - Page 1943 Peter G. Morros, Director, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, recalled during previous testimony he had been asked why the department had not requested more staff members to deal with some of the financial management problems identified by the audit division of the Legislative Counsel Bureau (LCB). He declared since he completed his review of the audit he has come to the conclusion additional staff, such as program assistant positions in both the northern and western regions of the state, would have been helpful during the fire season. Mr. Morros declared the last fire season was one of the worst ever experienced in the state, and additional help would have expedited many of the tasks. He told of earlier concerns as to whether there is enough of a work load to keep a full-time position occupied during the non-fire season. Mr. Morros stated the department will administer county funds on page 1937 of the Executive Budget for the intergovernmental account agreements delineated under account 10-4227. He explained in the past the department administered salaries while the counties managed the program. Now the Division of Forestry will administer the entire program which will necessitate additional staff. Mr. Morros requested two Program Assistant IV positions at grade 29 be added for assignment to Elko in the northern region and to the Eastlake office in Washoe Valley. He explained the position description is sufficiently diverse to conduct the duties to be assigned. Senator Jacobsen noted there will be an additional 179 inmates spread throughout the Division of Forestry's conservation camps at Stewart, Ely, Indian Springs, Pioche, Silver Springs, Wells, Humboldt, Carlin and Tonopah. Mr. Marvel inquired if adding back 14 crew supervisors will be enough for the increased number of inmates in the crews. Roy W. Trenoweth, State Forester Firewarden, Division of Forestry, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, responded there will be enough crew supervisors for the number of workable inmates enumerated by the prison system to bring the number to the appropriate level. Mr. Trenoweth voiced concern that the budget provides for the assistant camp supervisors to run the crews. He provided the committee with a copy of a letter on the subject (Exhibit C. Original is on file in the Research Library.) in which he relates his apprehension over the proposed assignments away from the camp. Senator O'Donnell asked if there will be a budget adjustment to provide for the 14 positions being returned. Mike Nolan, Budget Analyst, Budget Division, Department of Administration, replied revised budget sheets will be provided to the Legislative Counsel Bureau reflecting increases relative to the increased number of inmates and crew supervisors. He declared the increase in cost for the biennium will amount to $1.2 million. Senator O'Donnell inquired what revenue adjustments will be made and from what sources. Mr. Nolan replied: The revenue was increased by ... $67,000 to $68,000 based on the revenue earned or budgeted divided by the number of crews, 81, and then it was just driven by the additional crews. So there was a factor determined per crew of revenue that was earned, and that was just multiplied by the 14 which gave us the $68,000. Ms. Giunchigliani concurred that camp supervisors should not be sent out to run crews. She voiced concern over closing the camp at Jean and moving the inmates. She asked why inmates were being spread to all the other camps when, she opined, some of the other camps could be closed and the inmates moved to areas where the work load demands more personnel. She suggested "busy work" was being produced for some of the inmates. She supported a proposed policy change which will assure that the "lame and lazy" do not earn the same days off as those who actually work. Mr. Trenoweth responded: To maximize the revenue, we need to place the able-bodied workers down south at both Indian Springs and Jean, and then up here at Stewart and Silver Springs. That's where, over the past years ... the maximum has been made, and we could increase the revenue by approximately $200,000 if, in fact, we got the workable inmates in those camps. Jeanne L. Botts, Program Analyst, handed out a list of the camps and revenues (Exhibit D). Ms. Giunchigliani repeated her query as to why the inmates were going to be spread to most of the other camps when the work is located primarily at the four camps cited. Mr. Nolan indicated the population distribution is based upon information received from the prison and based upon the number of workable inmates and fire crew inmates. Ms. Giunchigliani asked why the "lame" could not be placed into a camp where there is less of a work load and make bed space available for "an able-bodied one." Mr. Close agreed Jean should not be closed and inquired what source of revenue is available if Jean is closed. Mr. Trenoweth replied if Jean is closed the revenue will have to be deducted because it has generated lots of revenue and there will not be an alternative source. Mr. Close asked who takes the crews out for work if the camp supervisor is unavailable and the assistant supervisor must take over. Mr. Trenoweth answered the crew supervisor takes out the crews and nothing will change in that respect. Mr. Spitler inquired when the classification for assistant supervisor came into being. Mr. Trenoweth replied it was prior to 1986. Mr. Spitler commented he had been unable to locate approval for the position of assistant camp supervisor, and thus he had been unable to determine the job delineation. Mr. Trenoweth offered to provide the information. Senator Jacobsen recalled the assistant position had come into being to handle paperwork at the camp and line up new projects while the crew supervisor was out with the crew. He said the assistant is only called upon to supervise crews in emergencies, such as fighting fires. Mr. Spitler reiterated his concern that every job is created with a job description and justification, and he has not been able to find a description in recent history for the assistant supervisor position. Mr. Morros interjected the class specification for the assistant conservation camp supervisor was established July 1, 1987, and there is a class specification description which he offered to provide along with a history of the job. Ronan Thornhill, Forestry Staff Specialist Camp Coordinator, Division of Forestry, State Department of Conservation and Natural Resources, explained when the camps at Ely and Wells were first instituted around 1985 there was one camp supervisor for 10 crew supervisors. He said a change took place in 1987 when the Department of Personnel completed a study and approved the addition of an assistant camp supervisor to each camp. Mr. Thornhill asserted one supervisor could not efficiently supervise 10 crew supervisors as well as manage the paperwork and contract for new projects. He added inmate training must be provided by one of the supervisors for project work as well as for fire suppression and for safe usage of machinery such as chain saws, wood splitters, chippers and other devices. He explained the assistant also spends time in the field visiting crew supervisors, handling quality control and setting up projects. Mr. Spitler reiterated his concern as to how the position was originally authorized. He remarked he had never been advised of the specific duties of the assistants other than to assist in the paperwork. Mr. Thornhill said there are several inmates who work only at the camp, who are supervised by the assistant, whose duties include clerical activities, saw mechanics, carpentry shop for repairs of items such as school desks, and sign manufacturing. He said the camp supervisor and assistant camp supervisor often switch off on duties, and at least one is in camp at all times, while the other is in the field, except during the fire season when only one supervisor may be available for both areas. Mr. Marvel asked who took over when the supervisor was moved from the Humboldt Conservation Camp. Mr. Trenoweth said the assistant took over while awaiting the new supervisor who formerly was assistant at the Jean Conservation Camp and who was promoted to the position. He stated the assistant supervisor position at Jean is vacant at the present time. Ms. Giunchigliani noted 18 percent of the work days in 1994 were spent suppressing fires, an increase over the average of 10 percent. In light of the growth of fire suppression activities, she asked why the value of the reimbursed projects is being cut in half. Mr. Trenoweth responded the project work for 1994-1995 has earned approximately $300,000 to date, and he anticipates it will amount to $350,000 to $400,000 by the end of the year. He said the camps earned approximately $450,000 in Fiscal Year (FY) 1994 for project work. Ms. Giuchigliani wanted to know why the figures for community, county, state, federal and private projects do not match the total number of projects completed as shown under the performance indicators. Mr. Trenoweth replied each time the crews are sent out for a project it is listed as one community project, although one project may be comprehensive and extend over a period of time. He opined the new tracking system will give a more accurate picture. Mr. Trenoweth explained funds are extracted from any project possible. He said some entities are only able to provide a minimal sum, so if an entity has no money, the project is performed for free. Mr. Thornhill interjected there are three priorities for all projects, the first being to handle emergencies such as wildland fires. He said the second priority is reimbursable projects. He noted the Pioche Conservation Camp is in an economically depressed area and historically it is difficult to earn money with projects performed by inmates in that area. He explained sometimes projects are performed for sums lower than what they actually may be worth, but they are performed for whatever the entities are able to pay. He said the third priority is non- reimbursed projects. Ms. Giuchigliani requested a list showing what projects are reimbursable, what the fair market value for those projects is versus what is charged, and where the revenue stream appears in the budget. She suggested one camp should be used for "lame and lazy" inmates while the other camps should be constructed so as to make them revenue-producing camps, or even that the nonrevenue-producing camps be closed. She wondered why the "lame and lazy" should even be put into the conservation camps. She charged allowing the "lame and lazy" to spend time sleeping while earning credits is not instilling good work habits or teaching any job skills. She declared picking up paper is not a "job skill." Senator Jacobsen remarked the ordinary charge for a conservation camp crew of 12 is $120 per day plus charges for travel. He pointed out when trees had to be removed to construct the legislative parking garage a bid of $25,000 had been received, but two conservation camp crews removed the trees for $200 and two cases of soft drinks, and the trees were split for firewood for senior citizens. Senator Jacobsen asked if each assistant supervisor should be assigned a work crew, and how the responsibilities of the supervisors compare to those of their assistants. Mr. Morros suggested written responses be submitted. Mr. Close stated he has been informed the Nevada Department of Transportation and the Division of Forestry have indicated they can use as many crews as are available. He asked if the potential for services and the income in those areas will be maximized. Mr. Trenoweth affirmed those will be maximized. He confirmed he had received a memorandum from the Nevada Department of Transportation (NDOT) stating what parts of the state could use crews, and the memorandum has been relayed to those areas in order to take advantage of those opportunities. He declared the projects are not make-work projects, they are beneficial projects cleaning highways, off-ramps and turnouts. He acknowledged there are some areas in which the crews have not been utilized due to lack of communication or knowledge that work is available. Mr. Trenoweth reported the Jean camp had earned over $6,300 from NDOT last month cleaning the highways in the area. He said the camp has done extensive work for NDOT in the past in the Las Vegas area. Mr. Close inquired if those who want to work will be given the opportunity, while those who do not will not be sent to the conservation camps. Mr. Trenoweth confirmed the query. Senator Jacobsen stated after the conservation camps had been instructed to bring in more revenue in 1993-1994 they produced $501,000. He pointed out the system was not designed to be in competition with private enterprise. Mr. Fettic inquired if the increase in the number of crew supervisors and other positions delineated in the budget request includes or excludes the Jean camp, since the Governor has indicated his intention to close the Jean Conservation Camp. Mr. Trenoweth answered it excludes the Jean camp, and if the camp is not closed more staff people will be required. Mr. Arberry asked if a study has been done showing that, if a treatment center for those convicted of driving under the influence of controlled substances (DUI) is created, those people will be rehabilitated and it will be possible to allow them back into society. Mr. Trenoweth suggested the question be directed to the Department of Prisons. Mr. Close asked if the income projections in the revised budget can be increased if productivity is increased and potential is maximized. Mr. Trenoweth replied they can and he agreed to provide the committee with new projections. In response to Senator Jacobsen, Mr. Thornhill stated the crew at Jean participated in 75 projects which earned $47,153 last year. He declared the division anticipates being able to generate more accurate figures with the new computer. He reported all camps had participated in 792 projects for a total of $449,720 in earnings. He explained those projects used 147,937 workdays, in addition to which there were 12,292 workdays spent fighting fires. Mr. Thornhill said from 9 percent to 12 percent of the total time is spent fighting fires during the year. He expressed hope that with more crew supervisors and more inmates there will be additional funds generated. Senator Jacobsen pointed out four women's crews worked on the fire lines last summer. Mr. Thornhill said he worked with those crews and they performed well on the hot spots. Mr. Trenoweth said the camps seek paying jobs and will be pursuing more work through NDOT in the future. Requesting that the Department of Prisons (DOP) join the discussion, Senator Jacobsen asked what might be done to increase the pool of willing and able inmate workers without endangering the public. Robert E. Bayer, Director, Department of Prisons, declared an oversight committee has been established including members of the Department of Prisons and the Nevada Division of Forestry (NDF). He explained the goal has been to increase the effectiveness of inmate workers. He said the committee has been attempting to find new ways and incentives to make the work crews more productive. As an example, Mr. Bayer declared fire-fighting is a very rigorous job which would be difficult for the average adult. In the past, he said, a crew might not be able to go out, but crews consisting of those who are not physically fit are being used for other jobs such as the NDOT projects. Mr. Bayer indicated good-time credits will be structured so that those fighting fires will receive more credits than those who remain behind at less exacting tasks. There is also a proposal regarding compensation to inmates which may be structured according to the tasks performed, he said. He commented there will be more classifications which will be set forth in a manual for both NDF and correctional officers to provide better coordination of work crews. Mr. Fettic inquired who sets the pay scale. Mr. Bayer replied the NDF sets the amount of pay since it is disbursed from their funds, but they discuss it with the DOP to ensure there will be no problems created. Acknowledging that there is a critical bed problem, Mr. Fettic asked how the determination is made as to who will be sent to the conservation camps. He particularly wanted to know if any inmates are being sent to conservation camps when it is known they will not perform the expected work. Mr. Bayer responded, "I guess I take some exception to the phrase `sick, lame and lazy.' A lot of time we use a broad brush to paint a particular picture." He related one time one of the so-called "lame and lazy" willingly mustered for a crew and then had a heart attack. He explained those who are of minimal risk to the community are considered for placement under minimum custody. He said, "You want to create bed space for the inmate that may be physically fit, but represents a greater threat to the community, and so ... we try to put them in a camp that most suits their needs." Mr. Fettic inquired what the impact on the prison population would be if three or four of the conservation camps were to be closed down. He asked, "Would all the forecasts you've given us so far go out the window?" Mr. Bayer replied, "Yes, sir." Ms. Giunchigliani queried: I would like to know, as you deal with your classifications for your public risk, and you look at who ... is a potential individual for going into an honor camp, I keep hearing ... they may not be physically able. Does that mean they have a physical disability, or is does it just mean that it's not been their standard, every day, let's-get-up-and-dog type of person, they're not in physical shape versus not having a disability? Mr. Bayer replied her assessment was not necessarily the case. He reiterated the rigors of fighting fires is extreme. He explained there may be people with physical or mental problems who need help, and since the camps at Jean and Stewart are near mental health facilities, those inmates requiring help are located there. He added there is a law library at the camp at Wells, so those wanting to do legal research are sent to Wells. Ms. Giunchigliani suggested no assessment is made prior to placement as to who should qualify for a conservation camp. She reiterated her concern that proper screening and diagnosis are not being done before inmates are being sent to conservation camps, inmates who are later found unable to perform revenue-generating work. She asserted inmates should prove their qualifications for work camps and she asked if inmates are required to exercise on a daily basis to keep them in shape. Senator Jacobsen pointed out the federal courts set rules regarding the requirements for inmates. Ms. Giunchigliani countered if boot camps can set up standards, prisons should be able to do so too. She declared inmates who are made to understand there are rules and consequences while they are incarcerated will be better able to understand there are rules and consequences when they return to society. Robin Bates, Chief, Classification and Planning, Department of Prisons, declared: The one important thing that we're not talking about ... is that conservation camps are capacity. They are capacity, they're not just programs. And the appropriations act placed those camps in our total capacity. Now, you take your law and your policy and determine how many people can go to camp, and that is how many camps you build. A certain percentage of those people that are eligible by law and policy are going to be undesirable because they're recalcitrant or because they're sick or because they had other behavior problems, and they're going to be in a bed. As long as the institutional beds are full, they're going to go to a conservation camp because it is capacity. Mr. Bates stated one of the measures being instituted to make change is through development of a program in which the inmates are better trained and they are not allowed to get by with marginal behavior. He said a multi-disciplinary task force has been formed for the purpose of improving the quality of the program. He added the criteria could be changed to allow only the best inmates into the conservation camps by changing the statutes and the policy to make a higher percentage of inmates eligible, from which to draw only those who are fit. He pointed out that would require making approximately 28 percent of the prison population eligible, whereas now approximately 23 percent are eligible for minimum custody based upon statutes and policy. Mr. Bates indicated the criteria is based upon prior criminal history and the severity of the current offense. He noted those convicted of sex offenses or those with long sentences are not eligible for the camps. He said if the policy is altered to reach farther into the population the downside will mean there may be more frequent walkaways or more misconduct. Senator O'Donnell recalled opposition to the closure of conservation camps during the last legislative session which he asserted resulted in too many prisoners being released back onto the street. He added that occurred just before the worst fire season in many years. He acknowledged the frustration of committee members that better people cannot be sent to the conservation camps, but he said without the space that option is gone. Mr. Fettic asked if there are other areas in which inmate labor is being used. Mr. Bayer responded the goal is to put every inmate to work. Mr. Spitler agreed the camps provide a low-cost alternative to bed space. He reminded the committee the level of expectation is different from reality because the camps are called something other than prison camps. He asked what low-cost alternatives to incarceration have been instituted by other jurisdictions. Mr. Bates responded there are conservation camps throughout prison systems all over the country. He noted the fire suppression work they perform normally does not supplant civilian activity, and hence the camps are very popular and very effective. He added there are a number of minimum custody facilities in other jurisdictions with small, light industry, and many engage in off- reservation work details. Mr. Bates stated there is a proposal in the 7-year program for a local, metropolitan non-fire NDF camp wherein the inmates will be fit for conservation work, but not the rigorous work of fire suppression. He said the department has come to an agreement with NDF to institute two categories of physical agility, one for fire suppression and one for conservation activities. He suggested that alone will increase the number of people available. Mr. Spitler opined the statutes should be changed to provide greater flexibility for placement in alternative settings. He asked why the department has not made a request for more flexibility. Mr. Bayer responded the department has proposed plans for greater flexibility, but he said he would not support widening the statutes because he believes it would be dangerous. He asserted each time the window is widened there is an increased risk to the public because it will allow more serious offenders to have access to the community before they may be ready. Mr. Spitler suggested the parole board will be given more flexibility through ASSEMBLY BILL (A.B.) 317 to move people to residential confinement or alternative skill centers. ASSEMBLY BILL 317: Makes various changes related to juvenile courts, sentencing, crimes and punishments. He asked why the Department of Prisons does not want the same flexibility. He declared everything he has read indicates the prison should be the entity to determine where the inmate should be confined. Mr. Bayer responded he has concern that there would be a significant risk if the criteria is widened and it could result in closure of the camp system. Mr. Spitler suggested the proposal to increase the camp population by 179 indicates they are ready for more flexibility right now. Mr. Bayer responded the 179 will be sent to the conservation camps only after they meet the criteria for minimum custody. He pointed out Mr. Spitler was suggesting a change in the criteria. Mr. Bayer reiterated his concern more problems could result from lowering the criteria. Mr. Spitler commented it makes no sense to close the camp at Jean because it generates revenue, yet he pointed out the facilities are run-down, graffiti covered and the assigned inmates have low morale. Mr. Marvel remarked the conservation camp system serves a useful purpose and the window should not be opened so wide that the whole program will be discontinued. He suggested too much latitude can lead to disaster. Ms. Giunchigliani asked where the 18-month qualifier is designated. Mr. Bates responded it is Department of Prisons Administrative Regulation 521. He explained the Board of State Prison Commissioners adopts standards pursuant to the Nevada Revised Statutes (NRS) and has defined "reasonable proximity to release" as 18 months. He said the other criteria is 1 year from the last violent episode, which he indicated is mandated in the statutes. He added no inmates who have holds or detainers outstanding from other states are allowed into the conservation camps. Regarding "reasonable proximity" to release, Ms. Giunchigliani noted some individuals have been given harsher sentences for crimes than others. She asked if that is weighed by the prison commissioners when they make their review. Mr. Bates said the "proximity to release" criteria is reviewed without regard to specific crimes. In response to Ms. Giunchigliani, Mr. Bates stated there are between 1,400 and 1,500 beds in the camps, all of which are full, and that several cots have been added pushing some of the camps over capacity. Ms. Giunchigliani averred the proposal to close the camp at Jean is "ludicrous" when it has 112 beds and especially if it is able to generate $120,000 by sending crews out to work for NDOT. Mr. Bates said: Without commenting on whether that's a good idea or a bad idea, remember what I said about capacity. It would still be 112 beds in the department's capacity. The program would change from NDF to therapeutic community. The people that go into there are going to come from the minimum custody pools, so it isn't closing the Jean camp that's changing the program. Ms. Giunchigliani remarked, "You're mixing apples and oranges," which she declared is part of the policy problem, saying "We're robbing Peter to pay Paul." She declared the intention to rehabilitate DUI offenders and return them to the community should be a separate decision from use of conservation camps. Senator Jacobsen wanted to know the turnover rate and how long the average length of stay is in the camps. Mr. Bates said he would provide the exact figures later. He indicated in general inmates in conservation camps have less than 18 months left until discharge or parole, and they are confined in the camps from 1 to 17 months for an average of about 6 months. Senator Jacobsen inquired if any existing laws should be revised to be sure the camps are filled with good workers while assuring public safety, and he asked what steps other states may be taking to handle the "sick, lame and lazy." Mr. Bates responded other states have built non-working camps for those who are unable to work for some reason, but who are eligible for minimum custody. He stated the non-working camps are built close to institutions where medical and other services are available, but where the cost per bed is much lower at $7,000 to $8,000 per year rather than $15,000. He pointed out those inmates are idle and do not earn sentence credits at the same rate as other inmates. Senator O'Donnell commented the disparity between sentences often arises as a result of plea-bargaining in which a person pleads to an offense lower than the charged offense because the prosecution doubts the ability to prove the higher offense. Senator Jacobsen asked representatives of the Division of Forestry to return for further testimony. He asked what wages are being proposed for in-camp versus out-of-camp work. Mr. Trenoweth replied a plan has been proposed which will offer less incentive to be an in-camp worker and it will be tied to good-time credits. Mr. Thornhill produced a copy of proposed worker payroll rates (Exhibit E) to be used for all DOP in-camp workers. He explained agreement was reached in 1988 with NDF to pay for 20 DOP in-camp workers if the camp size consists of 150 men. If the camp is designed for less than 150, the number of in-camp workers to be used for everyday maintenance and other functions required by DOP to keep the camp active is cut back. Mr. Thornhill acknowledged the pay rates have been manipulated over the years by the individual camps. He declared the pay rate schedule will be standardized by the oversight committee. Senator Jacobsen asked for an explanation of the "Helitak Program" and what impact it will have on regular work projects. Mr. Trenoweth responded the Helitak Program is a pilot project similar to one undertaken in California. He explained four inmates and the assistant camp supervisor at the Stewart Conservation Camp will be available at the Interagency Dispatch Center/Tanker Base in Douglas County to be sent via helicopter as soon as possible after a fire has broken out. He suggested the program should keep the cost and size of fires down and prevent destruction of the watershed. Mr. Trenoweth explained the equipment and supplies for the Helitak Program are already on hand and there should not be a need for additional equipment or supplies. Mr. Arberry asked if the inmates will live at the tanker base. Mr. Trenoweth replied they will be taken from the Stewart camp to the tanker base on a daily basis. He added there is also work to be done around the base. In response to a query by Senator Jacobsen, Mr. Trenoweth stated there is a one-shot request being made to provide 26 replacement buses for the camp system and for three additional buses for the expansion at the Pioche Conservation Camp. He declared if 26 buses are approved each camp will have buses that are in fair condition or better. He reminded the committee the request does not include any for the Jean Conservation Camp, and if it remains open more buses will be needed to assure each camp has buses at least in fair condition. Senator Jacobsen inquired what became of the engine-rebuilding program. Mr. Trenoweth responded his request for the program has been turned down, but he is willing to forego that request and simply maintain the existing buses in a state of readiness as long as 26 new buses are going to be provided. Senator Jacobsen asked why the new buses will be crew-cabs. Mr. Trenoweth explained some buses no longer fit the need for use in the back country which is very hard on the buses. He stated there is a crew-cab and chasis manufactured in California for 12 passengers in which the cab alone can be replaced. He said the California Department of Forestry has used the buses for several years and they have found they are able to replace the cab unit three time before it is necessary to replace the box for transporting the inmates. He declared over the long run they will provide better service even though the initial cost of $58,000 per unit is higher than other buses available. He provided lists of buses in use at the various camps (Exhibit F). Mr. Nolan interjected he has inspected the old buses and learned the driver and inmates are seated in the same area, with the equipment and supplies inside the bus separated only by expanded metal so the fumes from the chain saws, oil and gasoline are noticeable and dangerous in an accident. He said the new buses will provide separated compartments sealed from the outside for storage of the equipment and flammable supplies. He added with the inmates separated from the driver, the driver will not be subject to distractions from verbal or physical abuse, making the bus safer. Ms. Giunchigliani asked if the three buses recommended for the expansion of the boot camp at Indian Springs could be backed out of the budget if the expansion does not go forward. Mr. Nolan responded if the Jean Conservation Camp is not closed those buses may need to be shifted to Jean. He said he had come to the conclusion 26 buses are needed after he completed his review of all the buses and determined the condition of each. While he opined there is room for improvement, Senator Jacobsen declared the inmates and crew supervisor work as a team and he sees no necessity for the bus operator to be separated from the crew. He warned the next request may be that the supervisor be armed. Mr. Fettic suggested the DOP plan on the camp at Jean staying open and to adjust the figures accordingly. Senator Jacobsen noted the subcommittee will have to decide what recommendation to make regarding the Jean Conservation Camp. Senator Jacobsen inquired what vacancy savings will be budgeted for the conservation camps. Mr. Nolan responded there had been $150,000 budgeted which he lowered when he reduced the number of crew supervisors. He declared if the number of supervisors is increased and vacancy savings are included and due to an expectation of an increase in revenue, it may equal out. Senator O'Donnell pointed out the work program calls for $155,000 for FY 1994-1995, while only $38,700 is budgeted for FY 1995-1996, indicating a dramatic decrease. He asked what is being anticipated that will cause such a drop. Mr. Nolan acknowledged there had been an error because he missed putting some vacancy savings in the base budget. He said the adjustment will be added in. He explained the reduction had come about when he planned to eliminate 36 crew supervisors from the total 117 at a cost of $150,000. He reiterated a new figure will have to be added to the base. Senator Jacobsen inquired how the problems of work schedules, overtime, Sunday availability and days off are handled. Mr. Trenoweth replied during the fire season the camps are kept open 7 days a week, meaning there are fewer crews available in the field each day. He said in the winter the crews are closed down on Saturdays and Sundays, while some camps work only four 10-hour days, leaving Friday with no crews available. Senator Jacobsen noted the audit turned up several discrepancies and asked what is being planned to effect corrections. Mr. Trenoweth answered there is a draft audit correction plan that was distributed on the previous day to Senate and Assembly subcommittee members. He said a task force considering methods to correct the financial management has determined a complete overhaul of the entire financial management system needs to be done. Mr. Trenoweth said the first priority recommended by the task force is for additional positions, which is being addressed by A.B. 129. ASSEMBLY Bill 129: Makes supplemental appropriations to state department of conservation and natural resources for additional staff and equipment for state administrative offices. He said it will allow three new positions for clerical and accounting duties. He explained those positions, a Budget Analyst III, an Accounting Specialist, and Management Assistant I, will be assigned to the administrative service officer for the department and the accounting will be done within the department. Mr. Trenoweth estimated the person will commence duties within 2 to 3 weeks at which time the correction plan can commence, upon approval of the budget office. The plan will allow for restructuring the fiscal management under the supervision of the director's office, he said. He stated it will centralize the purchase-order system and it will limit use of the suppression account. He expressed hope all expenses including personnel overtime can be paid out of the base budget account if the budget is approved. As an example, he said if the crew at the Stewart camp goes to a fire, after which vehicles must be repaired, the expenses will be paid out of the base budget. He offered the opinion it will alleviate overuse of the suppression account, which he claimed has been used as an open-ended checking account. Mr. Trenoweth stated the suppression account will be tapped to pay for usage of the Nevada Youth Training Center, the Nevada National Guard, for pick-up labor and for retardant. He explained the billing for retardant and flight time should be able to go out immediately when the installation of the computer system at the tanker base is complete. Mr. Trenoweth described plans to standardize the pay rate for personnel by classification which will include salaries and fringe benefits. He voiced intentions to standardize rates for all the equipment, with approval from the Budget Division, and to publish those rates in order to speed up billings for fire reports. He said a new type of fire report is being tested at the tanker base in Minden so that all fire reports will be the same. Mr. Trenoweth explained all reports will be consolidated in the state office. He acknowledged there are times when some resources that go out at the beginning of a fire are missed in the initial billing, making it difficult to secure payment, and he stated under the new system all resources going out will have resource orders, thus enabling revenue capture. He stated fire management officers in the regions will be asked to track fires in-state and out-of-state. Senator Jacobsen requested that a time-line and final plan regarding the audit correction plan be provided to members of the committee. Senator Jacobsen introduced John Holmes, Concerned Citizen, who donated the Silver Springs Conservation Camp to the state. Mr. Holmes reported he and his wife had volunteered for fire and ambulance service for 15 years during which time they worked with prison crews. He said his wife had been one of the first to go out on a fire at night with men from the crews. Mr. Holmes declared he and his wife have a very favorable impression of the crews and of the camp program. He asserted the conservation camp program provides "a tremendous benefit to the community and to the state." He recalled a hearing before the Senate Committee on Finance during the last session of the Legislature in which the room was filled with people in support of the camps and who described the benefit to the communities where the camps are located. Mr. Holmes voiced his support for the inmates. He said although many of the inmates have never done an honest day's work, when they are put into a position to do something constructive, they take pride in their work. He asserted that gives them a sense of accomplishment and self-esteem from a work-related experience that they take with them when they return to society. Mr. Holmes said, "Being on the fire lines myself, I can say that nothing has ever pushed me as hard to the brink in life with the exception of Viet Nam. It is a tough, tough job, and I think that it provides some very good training." Mr. Holmes assured Ms. Giunchigliani those working on the fire crews do get lots of physical conditioning, because, he said, he sees them march past his home every morning and evening. He declared if people are put on a fire line who are not in good physical condition they may be killed or they may "fold" in the first few minutes. He recalled some women on the fire crews told him how proud they were because they lost 50 pounds while working out. He related he has seen some people start the program who did not appear to be capable of fighting fires, but by time they were through they were in very good condition. Mr. Holmes reported he has helped the crews establish lawns and shrubbery around the camps and some of those assigned to him have been the ones who failed earlier and were assigned extra duty. He called them "the worst ones." He said many of them were amazed that a person on the outside was willingly shoveling manure on a Sunday evening. He explained those people do not realize what real work is and what people must do to earn a living. He asserted the learning they gain from such experiences as they work hard along with him is very beneficial, and he guessed the program may save 1 in 10 of those on the crews. Mr. Holmes voiced his belief many of the people on the crew may be mentally retarded and they find it so difficult to function in society they will return to incarceration again, as will those who simply have a "bad attitude." However, he said, some who have had problems with drugs or alcohol may be "turned around" through the work, training and counseling. He urged the committee to remain focused on those accomplishments while considering the conservation camp program. Mr. Holmes told the committee about a 2-week period in which the crews assisted him on his property, using his tools, and at the end not one tool was missing. He said he was impressed because he would not feel free to leave a tool box on a construction site without expecting many of his tools to disappear. He added his wife praised the crews for refraining from use of bad language and for their good manners. He concluded the program is good not only for the taxpayers, but also for the inmates. Ms. Giunchigliani acknowledged during the last legislative session she had changed her opinion regarding closure of the camps after she heard testimony from the many supporters of the program. Mr. Trenoweth pointed out the central purchase order system will allow instantaneous movement of purchase orders from the camp through the Carson City office. He said the camps at Pioche, Ely and Wells do not have facsimile (FAX) machines and he requested purchase approval. Mr. Morros suggested the camps be given the flexibility to move crews from one camp to another in order to take advantage of job site locations. Senator Jacobsen supported the suggestion. He said there was one time during the last fire season in which there were nine crews working at Incline Village from all over the state. He noted the inmates were housed in tents at the Stewart Conservation Camp. Senator Jacobsen inquired how overtime will be distributed among the employees. Mr. Trenoweth responded that in the process of getting fiscal and internal management under control, he shifted the work load so that there will be two people, one in the office and one in the field, ready to make decisions at any one time. Ms. Botts asked if fiscal matters will continue to be approved through the director's office. Mr. Trenoweth affirmed her query. He explained the authority for decisions to which he referred will apply in cases such as escapes, while purchase requisitions will be made through the accounting section. He said corrections will be made as a result of the draft audit at which time the plan will be finalized. Ms. Botts opined the draft audit plan is not specific. Mr. Trenoweth responded, "All of the accounting matters will be done through the department director's administrative service officer." Mr. Morros agreed the draft formulated as a result of the audit will need more work. He said he provided the preliminary draft to committee members to show that the department is making progress on the plan. Mr. Trenoweth added he has distributed the plan to all regions where a full-time person is employed in order to solicit suggestions. Senator Jacobsen inquired if a complete job description will be included for all employees. Mr. Trenoweth said most of the work performance standards have been completed and all should be delineated within 60 days, department-wide. Senator Jacobsen asked if the computer network is operational. Mr. Trenoweth replied the computerized accounting system is not complete, and $7,100 for one-shot funds is being requested to complete the project so that the centralized office will have accounts payable and receivable and all other accounting procedures available. He explained the computer was unable to handle all the fields. He estimated the Department of Information Services (DIS) will have the system working soon after July 1, 1995. Mr. Trenoweth said there is a computer system in the camps that handles payroll, and the next addition to the camp system will be the projects, followed by computerization of monthly reports, and the systems are planned for the northern and southern regions. He noted the system at the Minden tanker base is used for dispatching and fire reporting only. Senator Jacobsen proposed the committee tour the Interagency Dispatch Center/Tanker Base in Minden. Mr. Morros concurred and suggested some committee members ride along during training exercises. He proposed they review the situation in the Lake Tahoe Basin at the same time. Senator Jacobsen agreed that a helicopter ride over the Lake Tahoe Basin will give a clear idea of the problems there. Mr. Close asked if the computer data will be on-line prior to the 1995 fire season. Mr. Trenoweth said he hoped so, but added the accounting data problem will not be complete before the one-shot appropriation. Mr. Close requested a time-line be provided. Senator Jacobsen noted nearly all counties participate in funding fire protection, while much of the equipment found in volunteer firehouses throughout the state has been provided by the Division of Forestry. He declared firefighting has been handled through cooperative efforts. He asked if the county funds should be transferred to the NDF to allow NDF to make the determination how those fund should be spent. Mr. Trenoweth stated each fire district budget is presented first to county commissioners who approve the projects and which are then signed off by the Department of Taxation. He explained personnel and State Industrial Insurance System (SIIS) costs and uniform allowances were once included in those budgets. He said NRS 473.050 states that all monies collected must be deposited in the state treasury for disbursement within the Division of Forestry. Mr. Trenoweth acknowledged in previous years some funds were left in the counties for their use, but from now on those funds will be funneled through the division. He indicated that will allow one type of accounting system and one type of purchasing method throughout the state even though the funds will still be spent within the localities. Senator Jacobsen inquired how the relationship with the county commissioners and volunteer fire departments is pursued. Mr. Trenoweth responded he does not meet with county commissioners on a regular basis, but regional foresters, fire management personnel and those within the locality meet with commissioners on a regular basis. He stated he has met frequently with volunteer fire departments and chiefs and regularly attends fire department association meetings. Senator Jacobsen interjected the camaraderie at meetings he has attended with Mr. Trenoweth has been excellent. Senator Jacobsen inquired how assessments will be calculated for charges to the counties for intergovernmental programs and what the assessments will cover. Mr. Trenoweth responded he received a letter from the Senate Committee on Finance and the Assembly Committee on Ways and Means after the last session indicating some of the costs were not being assessed properly throughout the fire districts and directing him to prepare a budget with proper assessments. Mr. Trenoweth said as a result the division decided the easiest way to accomplish the goal is by making an appraisal of full-time employees and using a percentage basis for each county. As an example, he said Washoe County, with the most full-time employees, pays the largest assessment based upon the funds deposited to the general support account, the attorney general's fee and the state cost-allocation. Mr. Marvel declared he would like to have the Nevada Association of Counties (NACO) position on record if any of the assessments are going to be changed. Senator Jacobsen concurred. Ms. Botts explained the intention of the letter regarding assessments was to point out the NDF was commingling county funds by spending funds from one county for expenses that should have been attributed to another county. She said the letter intended that Washoe County only be charged for expenses incurred in Washoe County and that the funds not be treated as a pool. Senator Jacobsen asked if a northern regional forester has been hired. Mr. Trenoweth replied there has been an acting northern regional forester since the vacancy arose last August and applications are being reviewed by the Department of Personnel. He indicated the permanent position should be filled by the middle of May. Senator Jacobsen invited Mr. Trenoweth and Mr. Bayer to identify the people accompanying them. Mr. Trenoweth introduced Mr. Thornhill, Dan Holbrook, Assistant Camp Supervisor, Stewart Conservation Camp; and Bob Ashworth, Regional Forester, Western Region. Mr. Bayer introduced Mr. Bates; Gary Little, Administrative Services Officer; Glen Warden, Classification and Planning; Tom Glab, Chief of Plant Operations; and John E. Neill, Chief, Fiscal Services, Department of Prisons. Senator O'Donnell reported he had received several letters regarding the removal of the Ely chaplain. He asked why the position was necessary and subsequently eliminated. Mr. Bayer responded a chaplain is able to establish a good relationship with the inmates. He stated the inmates have access to the chaplain on a regular basis in whom they establish a relationship of confidence, and the chaplain can intercede with families. He asserted the chaplains provide very valuable service. Mr. Bayer offered the belief the focus in the budget is on safety and security positions and because of that the chaplain position was deleted. Senator O'Donnell asked if there is a chaplain in Carson City and how often the chaplain visits the prison at Ely. Mr. Bayer replied there is a chaplain, Alban Fry, who has held the position for many years. Mr. Neill interjected there is no full-time chaplain at Ely at present, for which the department has made a request, but there are chaplain services being provided in the interim. Patricia R. Justice, Lobbyist, Clark County, and Karen Winkler, Attorney, Attorneys for Criminal Justice, offered support for chaplain services. James J. Jackson, State Public Defender, Office of the State Public Defender, joined in support for the position of full-time chaplain. Mr. Jackson explained: To the limited degree that those chaplain services are available for death-row inmates, I've seen a positive impact on the six or seven or so clients that we have currently on death row. But the ability to get those services to them is limited because it doesn't seem to be available all the time ... I think the presence of a chaplain is both calming and supportive of these folks that are awaiting the possibility of the death penalty being carried out. By doing that ... it helps our relationship with our clients on death row, because they are able to have somebody that they can vent out to, but still remain in a frame of mind where they'll cooperate with us, cooperate with prison officials ... and have a calming effect with them. So that that would be more readily available to them, I would support the position. Mr. Spitler inquired how many people are on death row. Mr. Jackson answered that there are 67 statewide. Mr. Spitler calculated that would mean one full-time position just for death row inmates. Ms. Justice responded there are more than 1,000 inmates at Ely, and the chaplain would be available to all of them, not just those on death row. She told him she does not handle death-penalty cases, but she handles every other kind of major felony. She asserted it is "unbelievably beneficial" to have someone available to talk to the defendants. She said: I think any attorney will tell you ... 3 years of law school ... doesn't really prepare them for the emotional turmoil of being an attorney. When you represent someone and they go to prison, they call with any number of issues, a lot of almost mental health issues, social issues. They call you when they're ready to cry. They call you when they want to commit suicide. They call you when they're in the throes of some crisis. And they call their attorney because that's the only person they really know and they can get to. So to be able to have a chaplain there who can answer to these needs and actually do it a lot better ... who is trained in the area, who can answer to their spiritual needs [is beneficial]. Ms. Justice opined being a correctional officer in an institution is probably a very stressful job and the presence of a chaplain to minister to the needs of the staff is also beneficial. For those reasons, she said, the Clark County Public Defenders office is wholeheartedly in support of providing full-time chaplains. Ms. Winkler stated the Attorneys for Criminal Justice, which supports retention of the chaplain, is an organization comprised of criminal defense attorneys. She declared her organization feels acceptance of responsibility is key to the ability of inmates to make the transition back into the community. She pointed out many of the inmates at Ely have committed very serious crimes and it is imperative that they understand the consequences their behavior has had upon their victims. She asserted a chaplain can provide spiritual guidance which allows those inmates to understand their conduct, accept responsibility and then return to the community as productive individuals. Ms. Winkler agreed the services of a chaplain are important to death row inmates who need spiritual help as they face "the greatest penalty anyone can face." Senator O'Donnell asked if there is any potential for a lawsuit if chaplain services are not provided. Mr. Jackson responded there is always a potential for lawsuits. Ms. Justice interjected there is the possibility under the equal protection argument, because there is a chaplain in Carson City. She noted his accessibility to other areas of the state is limited. Ms. Justice conveyed the support for continued chaplain services voiced by Ben Graham, lobbyist for the Nevada District Attorneys Association, who was unable to attend the hearing. Senator Jacobsen asked Mr. Bayer to provide information showing services being provided to the entire prison system by chaplains. Due to the late hour, Senator Jacobsen requested Gary Ghiggeri, Principal Deputy Fiscal Analyst, to give an overview of items remaining for discussion. Mr. Ghiggeri reported the subcommittee listed a number of issues regarding the Department of Prisons that need to be resolved prior to making any recommendations to close the DOP budget. He said the first item is inmate population growth and the resultant increased cost. Other issues he enumerated are the parole board approval rate, the assessment and life skills program that the subcommittee endorsed, the expanded residential confinement program also endorsed by the subcommittee, the substance abuse and drug rehabilitation programs, the expansion of the boot camp program, the impact of any other crime legislation being considered, and decisions regarding new positions. Mr. Ghiggeri pointed out the later decisions are made regarding the items he cited, the longer it will take to close the DOP budget. He said once those issues are decided it will take a great deal of time to work out the mechanics to infuse the legislation into the budget. Mr. Ghiggeri noted the budget calls for 438 new positions for the DOP, 304 proposed for the new Lovelock facility and 33 others proposed for a southern transportation team, for alcohol and drug treatment programs, for expansion of the boot camp program and to provide additional mental health treatment. He said 101 additional positions will be scattered throughout the existing budget for numerous other activities. He asked subcommittee members to provide him with guidance regarding which programs they do or do not approve or with any other input to assist in closing the budget. Senator O'Donnell noted he has not received requested information from the State Board of Parole Commissioners which he deems important in order to continue consideration. He stated he is uncomfortable with the release rates being suggested by the board to the administration. He said historically release rates have been lower than 35 percent. Senator O'Donnell stated he has sought information regarding the capability of using tents and alternative low-cost types of incarceration for which he is also awaiting responses from Mr. Bates and Mr. Bayer. He requested a report be made on those issues which will indicate costs prior to passing further judgement regarding the number of prison cells which will be required. Senator Jacobsen suggested those matters be put on the next agenda for the subcommittee. Mr. Bayer said he is investigating the items mentioned and he will prepare written response. Senator O'Donnell declared he would like to include consideration of release rates lower than 35 percent which he believes will continue. Ms. Giunchigliani agreed and suggested the committee also make recommendations regarding the makeup of the parole board membership. Senator Jacobsen said he has a bill being drafted regarding reconstitution of the parole board. Mr. Close recognized the difficulty the director has making a projection for the various levels of incarceration, yet he asked Mr. Bayer to provide projections as to which areas are apt to grow the most. Senator Jacobsen thanked those in attendance and closed the hearing at 10:55 a.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED: Judy Jacobs, Committee Secretary APPROVED BY: Senator Lawrence E. Jacobsen, Chairman DATE: Assemblyman Thomas A. Fettic, Chairman DATE: Assemblyman Larry L. Spitler, Chairman DATE: Senate Committee on Finance Assembly Committee on Ways and Means Joint Subcommittee on Public Safety/Naturall Resources/Transportation April 6, 1995 Page