MINUTES OF THE JOINT MEETING OF SENATE COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY AND ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY Sixty-eighth Session February 17, 1995 The joint meeting of the Senate Committee on Judiciary and the Assembly Committee on Judiciary was called to order by Chairman Brian Sandoval, at 9:48 a.m., on Friday, February 17, 1995, in Room 4401 of the Grant Sawyer State Office Building, Nevada Legislature, Las Vegas, Nevada. Exhibit A is the Agenda. Exhibit B is the Attendance Roster. SENATE COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Senator Mark James, Chairman Senator Jon Porter, Vice Chairman Senator O. C. Lee Senator Maurice Washington Senator Dina Titus ASSEMBLY COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Brian Sandoval, Vice Chairman Mr. Bernie Anderson, Chairman Ms. Barbara E. Buckley, Vice Chairman Mr. Thomas Batten Mr. David Goldwater Mr. Mark Manendo Ms. Genie Ohrenschall Mr. Richard Perkins Mr. Michael A. (Mike) Schneider Mrs. Dianne Steel Ms. Jeannine Stroth COMMITTEE MEMBERS EXCUSED: Senator Ernest E. Adler Senator Mike McGinness Mr. David E. Humke, Chairman Mr. John C. Carpenter Mrs. Jan Monaghan STAFF MEMBERS PRESENT: Allison Combs, Senior Research Analyst Dennis Neilander, Senior Research Analyst Patty Hicks, Committee Secretary Barbara Moss, Committee Secretary OTHERS PRESENT: Bob Teuton, Rose Commission David T. Wall, Rose Commission Paul Conner, Rose Commission Ulrich W. Smith, Rose Commission Larry Seger, California citizen Charlotte Seger, California citizen Suzanne Nooma, Teacher Jamar Traylor, Student Aaron Hill, Student Carlos Cloud, Student Mark Wirtala, Student Pam Graber, Supreme Court Chairman Sandoval requested the following individuals come forward and testify regarding the Judicial Assessment Commission's report. Mr. Ulrich J. Smith, Chief of the Narcotics Unit, Clark County, introduced David T. Wall, Clark County Public Defender; Bob Teuton, Assistant Director of Clark County Juvenile Division; Paul Conner, Chief Deputy, Human Resources, as members of the Judicial Assessment Commission, commonly known as the Rose Commission. Mr. Smith extended the apologies of Judge Nancy Oesterle, Chair of the Commission for being unable to be in attendance. In October of 1993 the Rose Commission was formulated to study our judicial system for recommendations of improvement. See (Exhibit C) attached hereto and made a part of the minutes. Mr. Bob Teuton, Assistant Director of Clark County Juvenile Division, stated that previously graphs and information were submitted to the committees indicating the increase of violent crime being committed by juvenile offenders. Mr. Teuton briefly went through the six recommendations of the Judicial Assessment Commission outlined in (Exhibit C) commencing at page 38. Mr. Goldwater stated he has introduced a bill that assesses either fines or community service to parents of certain juvenile offenders. Mr. Teuton advised this was discussed in passing by the Commission. Presently, the Juvenile Court Judge has jurisdiction over the parents as well. Parental accountability and responsibility would be appropriate. Senator Porter expressed his appreciation for the task force's efforts. The juvenile system can have more stringent penalties than the adult system. For example, a juvenile, if treated as such, charged with robbery with a deadly weapon would go to Nevada Youth Training Center (NYTC), Elko, under the philosophy of our present judge for seven to nine months. If that same juvenile went into the adult system, with the firearm weapon allegation dropped and eligible for probation, most likely that juvenile would be on probation and remain in the community. In some cases the juvenile system can be harsher initially than the adult system. The recommendation of reducing to age 14 in offenses of a firearm with specified felonies and the discretion of remanding to the juvenile system would give the flexibility to be harder. The juvenile has the final opportunity to either get his act straight or go to prison. Senator Washington inquired what is the general attitude, frame of mine, and perception of a juvenile when moved to the adult court. Mr. Teuton stated they have had juveniles attempt to escape or engage in riots in the juvenile detention facility for the express purpose of getting removed to the Clark County Detention Center where they felt they could bail and get out. Senator Washington further inquired if a juvenile being classified as an adult acts as a deterrent. Mr. Teuton thought it could. Right now, it does not. Youth do not end up with any serious sanctions. The whole predicate of criminal law is that sanction will act as a deterrent. Mr. Bob Teuton, Assistant Director of Clark County Juvenile Division, advised that juveniles are separated and put in with the adult population. He was not positive if it was a deterrent or not. Ms. Ohrenschall asked if he noticed any kind of a glamor factor among their peers when they were put into the adult population. Mr. Conner replied he did not notice that. Mr. Anderson added that a big status symbol for a gang juvenile was to spend time in a major correctional facility as compared to a juvenile correctional facility. Mr. Conner advised that he had not worked in the gang unit and was not qualified to answer. In an adult jail setting a juvenile has no status among adults. Mr. Ulrich J. Smith, Chief of the Narcotics Unit, Clark County, addressed the narcotics issues that the Rose Commission considered. See (Exhibit C). The Chair welcomed the students from Echoes of Faith Christian Academy and appreciated their presence at today's hearing. Senator James inquired about the suggestions regarding inmates charged with offenses to support a drug habit. Mr. Smith replied that the three areas the Rose Commission considered will impact the number of people in jail. Senator James asked if the Rose Commission was suggesting that jail terms be reduced or not incarcerate people, who have other crimes. Mr. Smith replied in the negative. All he was stating is that drugs are a problem and closely intertwined with different offenses. Possibly it was time to start looking at treatment as opposed to incarceration. Senator James inquired how much impact will be made on the jails to defelonize the simple possession of small amounts of marijuana. Mr. Smith advised let our laws reflect the reality and pocket the savings for treatment of violent offenders. Mr. Anderson pointed out reduction of a felony to a misdemeanor would open up the availability of the drug court to do what it was supposed to do. He emphasized the stipulated sentence keeps the hammer over the offender's head and they have to cooperate. The Rose Commission's recommendations do fit with the A.C.R. 71 Interim Study Committee recommendations. Rose Commission offered a reduction in fiscal impact that can be channeled elsewhere. Under the Influence of Controlled Substance (UICS) recommendation is identical to the marijuana recommendation. Nevada is the only state where it is a felony offense. If it is made a misdemeanor, substantial savings could be realized on this particular offense alone. Senator Washington was concerned with sending the wrong message to the community by reducing it to a misdemeanor from a felony. To reduce the negative perception, Mr. Smith reiterated that it needs to be further discussed in regard to the fiscal impact and explanation furnished to the public. Mr. Smith stressed the 25-years of "War on Drugs" did not stop the influx of drugs. He further stated, "Let's not penalize people, let's help them." Senator Washington suggested a proactive approach, such as the D.A.R.E. program, be pursued. Mr. Goldwater inquired if this amendment would apply only to first time offenders or after a certain amount of offenses, the charge is upgraded to a felony status. Mr. Smith responded that it would not because it complicates matters. Senator Porter expressed confusion in looking for ways of reducing cost of penalizing instead of looking at programs that are wasting funds. Are we trading sentences and penalties to keep other programs that do not work? Mr. Smith replied that the Rose Commission came to the conclusion that changes have to be made. The recommendation is one way to make needed change. Senator Lee stated we have heard "Truth In Sentencing" in relationship to being honest with the victims, society, and taxpayers. If this proposal were approved, would it be fair to say that it is "Truth and Disclosure" by telling society what really is being done with the marijuana joint and being honest with them. Mr. Smith stated that Senator Lee "hit the nail on the head." It is our responsibility to let the public know the truth. Mr. Manendo felt this body needs to address the fact that if one has a felony conviction it is hard to get a job. Senator James was concerned about passing a law where certain kinds of drug offenses will not be prosecuted. He called the committee's attention to Assembly Joint Resolution 15 from the A.C.R. 71 Interim Study Committee urging Congress not to pass any laws reducing criminal penalties for drugs. Senator James was in agreement that offenders convicted of drugs not involving violent crimes need to be diverted out of the prison system and given the treatment for their addiction. Mr. Smith advised, in reality it is currently just a "slap on the hand." The system presently is severely overburdened. This amendment would just reflect the reality of common practice of today. They are not advocating legalization. They are advocating de- felonization and shifting the savings into treatment. Mrs. Steel expressed her concern of defelonization and noted the success of "Say No To Drugs" program in the local schools. If the prosecutors are not treating the offense as a felony, then it is not fault of the public or Legislature's. This is what the prosecutors have decided to do with the laws that were enacted. The repercussions have to be weighed. Mr. Smith observed there were students in the room whom they could ask if they would try drugs if the penalties were reduced. He disagreed with the assessment that legalization causes more drug use. Ms. Ohrenschall questioned if Mr. Smith advocated decriminalization of marijuana because it would provide definite sanction to a misdemeanor and a ticket whereas presently, there are offenses that are not prosecuted because of the overburden. Mr. Smith advised that there are three terms: decriminalization, defelonization, and legalization. Defelonization is more palatable to the public. Ninety percent of offenses for drugs will be charged as a misdemeanor. Another reality is law enforcement does not have time to arrest everyone they come across with marijuana. Chairman Sandoval invited the following seventh and eighth grade students from Echoes Christian Academy to make comments regarding defelonization: Mark Wirtala, Jamar Traylor, and Aaron Hill. The students said they would not try drugs and felt the laws should not be reduced. Senator James expressed his appreciation for the students testimony and bravery. [Chairman Sandoval turned the gavel over to Chairman Anderson.] Chairman Anderson asked the Judicial Assessment Commission to resume their testimony. David T. Wall, Clark County Public Defender, spoke primarily on alternatives to incarceration (Exhibit C). Senator Titus inquired about a compromise to address the concerns of both viewpoints with first time offenders penalized with a misdemeanor and repeat offenders penalized with a felony. Mr. Wall stated the Commission did consider this suggestion and decided to make it an amount specific recommendation as opposed to whether someone has committed this offense before. Due to complications, Mr. Smith pointed out the difficulty of proving a second offense. Mr. Wall advised the Commission made a recommendation to create a permanent task force on alternatives to incarceration. Mrs. Steel inquired if the Rose Commission had completed its task. Mr. Wall responded that all its recommendations were completed. The Commission is still available to confer with Legislature. Mrs. Steel stressed the importance of considering public opinion. Mr. Wall advised the Commission had members who were not a part of the criminal justice system as well as a cross-section of members from the system. The task force took into consideration not only what would be best for the judges but also the people who enter the system. They looked at programs that are successful but not available in Nevada. One successful alternative is the drug court. Violent repeat offenders need to be incarcerated for as long as needed. Without building new prisons for the nonviolent offender, the Commission was trying to find a cost-saving method to get the best bang for the buck. Mr. Batten agreed with defelonization of marijuana up to a certain amount where it becomes a felony. As a law enforcement officer, he reminisced walking the beat in the largest resort area in the country at Virginia Beach, VA. Under an ounce of marijuana was treated as a misdemeanor. If it was a felony, there would not be any officers on the beach run during the summer time, creating a burden on the court system. Senator James concurred with Senator Titus' recommendation which could get the support of the Legislature. Mr. Wall advised that there are built-in safeguards and a misdemeanor is punishable from six months up to a year in jail. Mr. Smith commented that politicians need to have gumption to make positive steps forward. The Rose Commission is urging your consideration. Incremental steps may be more palatable to the public. Senator Washington applauded the Commission for its work knowing it was not an easy task to compile the information to formulate the recommendations. We all want to do what is best for our communities. In closing, Mr. Wall made the committees aware of the recommendation in (Exhibit C) made to "Truth In Sentencing." It allows an offender, judge, and victim immediately after sentencing to have an idea of offender's release date from prison. Chairman Anderson asked security to remove Mr. Joseph Maviglia from the hearing due to his disruptive behavior at the recording secretary's desk. The Chair apologized to Mr. Wall. He was assured the recording secretary could hear his testimony. "Truth In Sentencing" is a communicative tool when a defendant is sentenced. The victim and the public should all understand the duration of incarceration. Ms. Stroth commented that the bill draft on this particular legislation will be completed when the Legislature convenes in Carson City next week. Chairman Anderson thanked the Commission for their time, diligent effort, and appearance before the committees. In listening to a different viewpoint, Mr. Larry Seger of California addressed the committees. As a ten year federal prison employee, he believes if the drug addiction was recognized early, there may be help for the offender. However, in his 10-year experience he was not aware of any successful drug treatment and rehabilitation program. Ms. Susan Nooma, teacher of seventh and eighth grade students from Echoes Christian Academy yielded to her students to make comments regarding defelonization: Carlos Cloud, Aaron Hill, and Jamar Traylor. They felt the penalties should be increased rather than decreased. Senator Washington proclaimed that the students were brothers after his own heart. There being no further business to come before the committee, Chairman Anderson adjourned the meeting at 11:46 a.m. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED: Patty Hicks, Committee Secretary APPROVED BY: Mr. Brian Sandoval, Chairman Mr. Bernie Anderson, Chairman Senator Mark A. James, Chairman Joint Meeting of the Assembly and Senate Committees on Judiciary February 17, 1995 Page